Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:08 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:34 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:28 pm

Oh come on. The JLM was basically defunct until 2015. It was relaunched in 2015/16 to go after Corbyn. Let's be honest about it.

The rest of that is just waffle. What anti-semitic trope were you talking about?

One might see it as 'to go after Corbyn'. Others might see it as finding a way of voicing deeply held concerns about the conduct of party members, including some current MPs, and former office holders. Some might argue that such a group wasn't hugely necessary in the Labour Party until this time.

The main concern was the 'wealthy patrons' comment. It doesn't take a genius to work that one out. The other was the suggestion that JLM have a loyalty to a foreign power.

The group and organised campaign was only necessary when a pro-Palestinian rights leader was elected. Up until then the leadership were supporters of Zionism.

For that political reason the JLM as a front organisation was reactivated and was funded by the Israeli embassy (see video of Joan Ryan being caught on camera).

The antisemitic smears then became a central plank of an overblown PR campaign to undermine Corbyn. Be clear what I am NOT saying here is that there were no instances of antisemitism nor that the leadership handled the situation particularly well.

However, creating thousands of false accusations was just another ploy to overwhelm bureaucrats dealing with the Party disciplinary procedures and as planned this enabled accusations to be levelled against Corbyn that he was not dealing with the matter properly.

I agree with you that the funding by wealthy patrons statement is an often used anti-Semitic trope and needs to be challenged at all times.

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:08 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:34 pm

One might see it as 'to go after Corbyn'. Others might see it as finding a way of voicing deeply held concerns about the conduct of party members, including some current MPs, and former office holders. Some might argue that such a group wasn't hugely necessary in the Labour Party until this time.

The main concern was the 'wealthy patrons' comment. It doesn't take a genius to work that one out. The other was the suggestion that JLM have a loyalty to a foreign power.

The group and organised campaign was only necessary when a pro-Palestinian rights leader was elected. Up until then the leadership were supporters of Zionism.

For that political reason the JLM as a front organisation was reactivated and was funded by the Israeli embassy (see video of Joan Ryan being caught on camera).

The antisemitic smears then became a central plank of an overblown PR campaign to undermine Corbyn. Be clear what I am NOT saying here is that there were no instances of antisemitism nor that the leadership handled the situation particularly well.

However, creating thousands of false accusations was just another ploy to overwhelm bureaucrats dealing with the Party disciplinary procedures and as planned this enabled accusations to be levelled against Corbyn that he was not dealing with the matter properly.

I agree with you that the funding by wealthy patrons statement is an often used anti-Semitic trope and needs to be challenged at all times.

Thank you for a more sensible response.

Indeed the leadership pre-2015 did have more favourable stances towards the existence of an Israeli state, like a whole host of policy differences on issues across the foreign policy debate. Support for Israel's right to exist isn't and should never be a bad thing in itself.

You are wrong on the point about Joan Ryan I am afraid- you are referring to LFI, a different organisation. Please retract.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:36 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:08 pm

The group and organised campaign was only necessary when a pro-Palestinian rights leader was elected. Up until then the leadership were supporters of Zionism.

For that political reason the JLM as a front organisation was reactivated and was funded by the Israeli embassy (see video of Joan Ryan being caught on camera).

The antisemitic smears then became a central plank of an overblown PR campaign to undermine Corbyn. Be clear what I am NOT saying here is that there were no instances of antisemitism nor that the leadership handled the situation particularly well.

However, creating thousands of false accusations was just another ploy to overwhelm bureaucrats dealing with the Party disciplinary procedures and as planned this enabled accusations to be levelled against Corbyn that he was not dealing with the matter properly.

I agree with you that the funding by wealthy patrons statement is an often used anti-Semitic trope and needs to be challenged at all times.

Thank you for a more sensible response.

Indeed the leadership pre-2015 did have more favourable stances towards the existence of an Israeli state, like a whole host of policy differences on issues across the foreign policy debate. Support for Israel's right to exist isn't and should never be a bad thing in itself.

You are wrong on the point about Joan Ryan I am afraid- you are referring to LFI, a different organisation. Please retract.

Yes it was LFI but when front organisations are in operation they are all part of an overall coordinated campaign, with membership crossover between the various organisations. Sometimes even the participants don't know what hat they are wearing at a specific moment in time.

Redo is right about Corbyns concern for the lives and rights of the Palestinians against a murderous oppressor. In fact although I'm no expert on Labour Party politics ut I'm fairly sure Jerry supports a two state solution to the Palestinian situation.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:37 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:36 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Thank you for a more sensible response.

Indeed the leadership pre-2015 did have more favourable stances towards the existence of an Israeli state, like a whole host of policy differences on issues across the foreign policy debate. Support for Israel's right to exist isn't and should never be a bad thing in itself.

You are wrong on the point about Joan Ryan I am afraid- you are referring to LFI, a different organisation. Please retract.

Yes it was LFI but when front organisations are in operation they are all part of an overall coordinated campaign, with membership crossover between the various organisations. Sometimes even the participants don't know what hat they are wearing at a specific moment in time.

Redo is right about Corbyns concern for the lives and rights of the Palestinians against a murderous oppressor. In fact although I'm no expert on Labour Party politics ut I'm fairly sure Jerry supports a two state solution to the Palestinian situation.

You are quite right - you are no expert on Labour Party politics.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:40 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:37 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:36 pm

Yes it was LFI but when front organisations are in operation they are all part of an overall coordinated campaign, with membership crossover between the various organisations. Sometimes even the participants don't know what hat they are wearing at a specific moment in time.

Redo is right about Corbyns concern for the lives and rights of the Palestinians against a murderous oppressor. In fact although I'm no expert on Labour Party politics ut I'm fairly sure Jerry supports a two state solution to the Palestinian situation.

You are quite right - you are no expert on Labour Party politics.

Yes, yes marvellous point but does Jerry support a two state solution or not? That is point.

If you are going to cat call like a child from the sidelines then get off the thread.

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:25 pm This isn't about Israels right to exist, no one is challenging that.

This is about Palestines right to exist. Some people refuse to accept that.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:36 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:08 pm

The group and organised campaign was only necessary when a pro-Palestinian rights leader was elected. Up until then the leadership were supporters of Zionism.

For that political reason the JLM as a front organisation was reactivated and was funded by the Israeli embassy (see video of Joan Ryan being caught on camera).

The antisemitic smears then became a central plank of an overblown PR campaign to undermine Corbyn. Be clear what I am NOT saying here is that there were no instances of antisemitism nor that the leadership handled the situation particularly well.

However, creating thousands of false accusations was just another ploy to overwhelm bureaucrats dealing with the Party disciplinary procedures and as planned this enabled accusations to be levelled against Corbyn that he was not dealing with the matter properly.

I agree with you that the funding by wealthy patrons statement is an often used anti-Semitic trope and needs to be challenged at all times.

Thank you for a more sensible response.

Indeed the leadership pre-2015 did have more favourable stances towards the existence of an Israeli state, like a whole host of policy differences on issues across the foreign policy debate. Support for Israel's right to exist isn't and should never be a bad thing in itself.

You are wrong on the point about Joan Ryan I am afraid- you are referring to LFI, a different organisation. Please retract.

Yes it was LFI but when front organisations are in operation they are all part of an overall coordinated campaign, with membership crossover between the various organisations. Sometimes even the participants don't know what hat they are wearing at a specific moment in time.

Redo is right about Corbyns concern for the lives and rights of the Palestinians against a murderous oppressor. In fact although I'm no expert on Labour Party politics I'm fairly sure Jerry supports a two state solution to the Palestinian situation.

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:08 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:36 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Thank you for a more sensible response.

Indeed the leadership pre-2015 did have more favourable stances towards the existence of an Israeli state, like a whole host of policy differences on issues across the foreign policy debate. Support for Israel's right to exist isn't and should never be a bad thing in itself.

You are wrong on the point about Joan Ryan I am afraid- you are referring to LFI, a different organisation. Please retract.

Yes it was LFI but when front organisations are in operation they are all part of an overall coordinated campaign, with membership crossover between the various organisations. Sometimes even the participants don't know what hat they are wearing at a specific moment in time.

Redo is right about Corbyns concern for the lives and rights of the Palestinians against a murderous oppressor. In fact although I'm no expert on Labour Party politics I'm fairly sure Jerry supports a two state solution to the Palestinian situation.

No, you are conflating the two. Of course there is some membership crossover, that is surely to be expected. Personally, I'm a member of one, but not the other.

Calling it a front organisation just makes you look even more of a conspiracy theorist.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:57 pm Well I’ll own up to not having a clue on most things,

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:07 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:25 pm This isn't about Israels right to exist, no one is challenging that.

This is about Palestines right to exist. Some people refuse to accept that.

Plenty of people challenge it, daily.

As I said in an earlier post, the two positions are not mutually exclusive. Personally I prefer to support self-determination for all oppressed people, not just certain ones here and there.

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:07 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:25 pm This isn't about Israels right to exist, no one is challenging that.

This is about Palestines right to exist. Some people refuse to accept that.

Plenty of people challenge it, daily.

As I said in an earlier post, the two positions are not mutually exclusive. Personally I prefer to support self-determination for all oppressed people, not just certain ones here and there.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:07 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:07 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:25 pm This isn't about Israels right to exist, no one is challenging that.

This is about Palestines right to exist. Some people refuse to accept that.

Plenty of people challenge it, daily.

As I said in an earlier post, the two positions are not mutually exclusive. Personally I prefer to support self-determination for all oppressed people, not just certain ones here and there.

I guess the Jewish people have experienced oppression more than most. Can understand their feelings.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:31 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:07 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:25 pm This isn't about Israels right to exist, no one is challenging that.

This is about Palestines right to exist. Some people refuse to accept that.

Plenty of people challenge it, daily.

As I said in an earlier post, the two positions are not mutually exclusive. Personally I prefer to support self-determination for all oppressed people, not just certain ones here and there.

What in practical terms do you do to support self determination for Palestinians?

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:15 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:31 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:07 pm

Plenty of people challenge it, daily.

As I said in an earlier post, the two positions are not mutually exclusive. Personally I prefer to support self-determination for all oppressed people, not just certain ones here and there.

What in practical terms do you do to support self determination for Palestinians?

Thankfully its not about me. There are many issues that I don't personally do enough on. I haven't been on a march for a couple of years and I haven't campaigned for a political candidate since May 2018. I still eat meat, fly and use cars even though I claim to be an environmentalist, for example. You are fair in saying that I personally might not do enough, but the problem goes a million miles further than that.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:53 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:15 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:31 pm

What in practical terms do you do to support self determination for Palestinians?

Thankfully its not about me. There are many issues that I don't personally do enough on. I haven't been on a march for a couple of years and I haven't campaigned for a political candidate since May 2018. I still eat meat, fly and use cars even though I claim to be an environmentalist, for example. You are fair in saying that I personally might not do enough, but the problem goes a million miles further than that.

So the answer to the original question is nothing. You said further up this thread you were a member of either JLM or LFI. Do you discuss self determination for Palestinians with fellow members?

I wasn't criticising your lack of activism. So there's no need to get all defensive.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:29 pm I met Ken Livingstone once. Once was more than enough. Mind you tbf I doubt he remembers me where as I wish I could forget him.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:54 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:29 pm I met Ken Livingstone once. Once was more than enough. Mind you tbf I doubt he remembers me where as I wish I could forget him.

Sorry mate I've had to foe you . Can't take any more of your drivel.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:07 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:07 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:25 pm This isn't about Israels right to exist, no one is challenging that.

This is about Palestines right to exist. Some people refuse to accept that.

Plenty of people challenge it, daily.

As I said in an earlier post, the two positions are not mutually exclusive. Personally I prefer to support self-determination for all oppressed people, not just certain ones here and there.

I guess the Jewish people have experienced oppression more than most. Can understand their feelings.

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:30 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:07 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:07 pm

Plenty of people challenge it, daily.

As I said in an earlier post, the two positions are not mutually exclusive. Personally I prefer to support self-determination for all oppressed people, not just certain ones here and there.

I guess the Jewish people have experienced oppression more than most. Can understand their feelings.

Tell that to the Palestinians.

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:38 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:30 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:07 pm

I guess the Jewish people have experienced oppression more than most. Can understand their feelings.

Tell that to the Palestinians.

It's not a competition!

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:35 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:38 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:30 pm

Tell that to the Palestinians.

It's not a competition!

Tell that to the Palestinians.