Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 9:40 am People really have short memories.

I feel like I know you from somewhere?

Still's Carenae wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:54 pm

E10EU wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 3:51 pm Have they said anything about the ground and where Orient's playing future is?
If I remember correctly Hearn owns the the ground and stadium, with Orient having a 20 year lease (almost half of which has expired by now).

No 100 years renegotiated every 20 years.

No, it's a 20-year lease with the club having an option to extend for 20 years and a further 20-year extension after that.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:22 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 6:42 pm
Technically not Hearn now, rather his pension fund. The slimiest move of all, transferring it at cost price to weasel out of the profit share with the club (which cost LOFC £6 million as he took the ground at half price based on future profit share).

All of which was going on in the midst of the Beelzebub crisis, slippery as they come.

And the loft experts told us there was nothing to worry about, it was just standard tax planning.

We've never pretended to be experts, we're just fans who organise collective supporter representation. We certainly didn't say "don't worry, it's just standard tax planning", just that the transaction was sound and conferred no loss of benefit to the club (which is true, as we're still playing football there 5 years later).

And please, spare us the LOFT bashing. There's nobody else who has the legal status, capability or willingness to successfully apply twice for Asset of Community Value status on the ground (fending off Hearn's solicitors' objections the first time), which means that no sale of the ground can take place without LOFT being notified and given an opportunity to bid to buy it.

For those who don't recall, we did actually submit an 'intention to bid' to the council when we were notified of the 'sale' from Matchroom Sport to a Matchroom Pension Scheme, which paused the sale for 6 months. We spent some time - when we were getting increasingly busy as the club was descending into crisis - looking into whether a taking out a commercial loan would be worth it to get the ground into fan ownership. The short answer it wasn't, for reasons we set out at the time.

I would say losing 50% of the sale proceeds over £6m is absolutely a loss of benefit to the club.

“While Adam was obviously not at liberty to discuss Barry's tax situation, he was able to report that Barry was honest and open with us, and that the transaction was sound and conferred no loss of benefit to the club.”



This all sounds very familiar. Don’t ask too many questions in regards to the club, take everything at face value.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 2:00 pm “While Adam was obviously not at liberty to discuss Barry's tax situation, he was able to report that Barry was honest and open with us, and that the transaction was sound and conferred no loss of benefit to the club.”



This all sounds very familiar. Don’t ask too many questions in regards to the club, take everything at face value.

I suppose you could always join LOFT and give them the benefit of your expertise.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 1:44 pm I would say losing 50% of the sale proceeds over £6m is absolutely a loss of benefit to the club.

Only if the Matchroom Pension Scheme ever sells the stadium, and if the sale price is over £6m (which isn't a given, since there's a sitting tenant with a right to stay until 2069).

Real Al wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 2:15 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 2:00 pm “While Adam was obviously not at liberty to discuss Barry's tax situation, he was able to report that Barry was honest and open with us, and that the transaction was sound and conferred no loss of benefit to the club.”



This all sounds very familiar. Don’t ask too many questions in regards to the club, take everything at face value.

I suppose you could always join LOFT and give them the benefit of your expertise.

What’s the point?

A Pedant wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 2:32 pm

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 1:44 pm I would say losing 50% of the sale proceeds over £6m is absolutely a loss of benefit to the club.

Only if the Matchroom Pension Scheme ever sells the stadium, and if the sale price is over £6m (which isn't a given, since there's a sitting tenant with a right to stay until 2069).

What’s the deal with the flats? Are they leasehold or freehold?

A Pedant wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 2:32 pm

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 1:44 pm I would say losing 50% of the sale proceeds over £6m is absolutely a loss of benefit to the club.

Only if the Matchroom Pension Scheme ever sells the stadium, and if the sale price is over £6m (which isn't a given, since there's a sitting tenant with a right to stay until 2069).

Of course it'll be worth more than £6 million, prime real estate in a recently regenerated area. The sporting covenant won't take much to work around either.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 5:28 pm What’s the deal with the flats? Are they leasehold or freehold?

I would assume leasehold, since the land they're built on was sold to Bellway Homes. The various blocks of flats are completely separate from LOFC's current lease on the stadium.

A Pedant wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 2:32 pm

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 1:44 pm I would say losing 50% of the sale proceeds over £6m is absolutely a loss of benefit to the club.

Only if the Matchroom Pension Scheme ever sells the stadium, and if the sale price is over £6m (which isn't a given, since there's a sitting tenant with a right to stay until 2069).

Doesn't the Matchroom Pension scheme have the right to renegotiate the tenancy in about 10 years time? In which case there's nothing to stop Barry pushing the price up to say, a million a year, and forcing the club out. He then turns is into a small indoor boxing venue to meet the sporting covenant requirement and flogs off the remaining land, for apartments. He may not do this, and WF council may not allow it, but I've felt this was his game plan ever since he started buying up chunks of the ground in exchange for monies owed to him by the club.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 10:14 pm

MalvoliO wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 8:31 pm I truly believe that those who come on here now and spew negativity about how the club is run are either total wind-up merchants or clueless (or both). Our club has never been in better hands from the top down off the pitch. If we can now manage to attract the kind of calibre of player that can get us promoted this season, then we will be looking to a great season ahead.

Believe what you like but being led by the man who led a company that helped make America fat leaves me cold.

You can lead a horse to the water trough but he does not have to drink from it.

Adz wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 7:27 am Doesn't the Matchroom Pension scheme have the right to renegotiate the tenancy in about 10 years time?

No. The rent is reviewed every 5 years and the increase is calculated on a formula involving the base interest rate. At the end of the 20-year lease (18 February 2029), the club has a right of renewal at the same terms for a further 20 years, and in 2049 has the right to renew at the same terms for a further 20 years until 2069.

Adz wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 7:27 am

A Pedant wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 2:32 pm

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 1:44 pm I would say losing 50% of the sale proceeds over £6m is absolutely a loss of benefit to the club.

Only if the Matchroom Pension Scheme ever sells the stadium, and if the sale price is over £6m (which isn't a given, since there's a sitting tenant with a right to stay until 2069).

Doesn't the Matchroom Pension scheme have the right to renegotiate the tenancy in about 10 years time? In which case there's nothing to stop Barry pushing the price up to say, a million a year, and forcing the club out. He then turns is into a small indoor boxing venue to meet the sporting covenant requirement and flogs off the remaining land, for apartments. He may not do this, and WF council may not allow it, but I've felt this was his game plan ever since he started buying up chunks of the ground in exchange for monies owed to him by the club.

In 2009 Leyton Orient sold the 990 year lease to Matchroom Sports . Matchroom Sports granted a.20 year lease back to the club with free rent for the first 5 years and £180000 for the remaining period. The club has to renegotiate after that period. I believe Waltham Forest still hold the freehold . The council gave Barry Hearn the right to sell off the 4 corners of the ground for £7.5 m to which they received £1 million. The council still want the ground to remain as a football ground so I don’t think Barry can change that. When he took out the lease from the council it was for £1 per year.

A Pedant wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 2:32 pm

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 1:44 pm I would say losing 50% of the sale proceeds over £6m is absolutely a loss of benefit to the club.

Only if the sale price is over £6m

The 4 corners were flogged off to Beadie and Hearn for £7.5m donkeys years ago, and you think there’s a chance the remaining land isn’t worth more than £6m?

I can’t even begin to guess how many tens of millions it will eventually go for.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 9:23 am

A Pedant wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 2:32 pm

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 1:44 pm I would say losing 50% of the sale proceeds over £6m is absolutely a loss of benefit to the club.

Only if the sale price is over £6m

The 4 corners were flogged off to Beadie and Hearn for £7.5m donkeys years ago, and you think there’s a chance the remaining land isn’t worth more than £6m?

It was amazing how each corner of the ground was worth around 2 million, yet when Hearn sold the strips behind the North and South to that shell company they were mysteriously only worth 1.25 million for the two. A great deal for the club again no doubt

Sorry, my bad.

So the 4 small corners were sold off to independent 3rd parties, but the large strips behind the stands were handed over to Samuel Beadie for a pittance? Is that right?

gshaw wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 9:37 am It was amazing how each corner of the ground was worth around 2 million, yet when Hearn sold the strips behind the North and South to that shell company they were mysteriously only worth 1.25 million for the two. A great deal for the club again no doubt

I don't know if those strips of land were undersold, but I do know there are 144 flats in total on the 4 corners compared to 62 in total behind the North and South Stands, and that at the time the strips were sold there was no planning permission for developing them - and planning permission was later refused, until modifications were made and £120k paid to the council to put parking in for the North Stand flats. Had there been planning permission, no doubt the land sale price would have been greater.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 9:23 am The 4 corners were flogged off to Beadie and Hearn for £7.5m donkeys years ago, and you think there’s a chance the remaining land isn’t worth more than £6m?

You're not comparing like for like. There's a sitting tenant on the remaining land with unilateral right to remain until 2069. Unless you're trying to predict land values in late 2060s? All I know for fact is that an independent valuation carried out in 2009 put the value of the various long leases for redevlopment at £4m-6m, bearing in mind the sitting tenant, lack of planning permission etc.

moonwalk19 wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 8:57 am In 2009 Leyton Orient sold the 990 year lease to Matchroom Sports . Matchroom Sports granted a.20 year lease back to the club with free rent for the first 5 years and £180000 for the remaining period. The club has to renegotiate after that period. I believe Waltham Forest still hold the freehold . The council gave Barry Hearn the right to sell off the 4 corners of the ground for £7.5 m to which they received £1 million. The council still want the ground to remain as a football ground so I don’t think Barry can change that. When he took out the lease from the council it was for £1 per year.

Almost all correct, except that £180k was the rent for years 5-10, with a rent review at years 10, 15, etc.

A Pedant wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 11:40 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 9:37 am It was amazing how each corner of the ground was worth around 2 million, yet when Hearn sold the strips behind the North and South to that shell company they were mysteriously only worth 1.25 million for the two. A great deal for the club again no doubt

I don't know if those strips of land were undersold, but I do know there are 144 flats in total on the 4 corners compared to 62 in total behind the North and South Stands, and that at the time the strips were sold there was no planning permission for developing them - and planning permission was later refused, until modifications were made and £120k paid to the council to put parking in for the North Stand flats. Had there been planning permission, no doubt the land sale price would have been greater.

Are you still defending Hearn even now? At what point would you actually turn round and admit he did a number on the club?

Seeing as I'm told Gilson didn't ask it in the Hearn interview, was it a "fantastic deal" for Orient?

A Pedant wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 11:45 am

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 9:23 am The 4 corners were flogged off to Beadie and Hearn for £7.5m donkeys years ago, and you think there’s a chance the remaining land isn’t worth more than £6m?

You're not comparing like for like. There's a sitting tenant on the remaining land with unilateral right to remain until 2069. Unless you're trying to predict land values in late 2060s? All I know for fact is that an independent valuation carried out in 2009 put the value of the various long leases for redevlopment at £4m-6m, bearing in mind the sitting tenant, lack of planning permission etc.

Do you honestly believe the valuation by whichever agent Hearn appointed in 2009 was independent? And that the valuation carried out by another firm Hearn appointed at point f transfer to the pension scheme, that coincidentally arrived at a £6m figure, was also independent?

If so, I have a Nigerian prince uncle who would be very delighted to be making your acquaintance for some investment opportunities he is close to.

I am absolutely predicting that the land has been undersold and many, many, many millions of pounds will be made, not by the club. I’m also predicting that Leyton won’t be playing soccer at Brisbane in 2069.

Prime land, 15 mins from where the Olympic park would be 3 years later, was worth £6m. Alright