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Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:26 pm
by Still wrong
Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:20 pm
LittleMate wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:08 pm
So anyway at the moment we have Happe, Kyprianou, Sotiriou are youth products. Personally Sotirou is having a backward season (looks like he's carrying too much weight/muscle compared to 2019-20). None of these will sell for the sort of money running a youth system requires (tbf Kyp needs another season to judge that).
Sargent? One in a long time of back up youth product keepers
Ogie - not sure he progressed through the youth system
Judd - never held down a place in the team.
Is the academy is working as it is?
Subjective isn't it. And as a side point what do people want an academy to achieve?
I'd say it is working because we couldn't afford to buy a Sotiriou, Kyprianou, or Happe if we had to. Plus as under 21's and youth they don't count towards the playing budget cap (I think they are all under 21).
It would appear that you're looking at an academy in terms of what we can get for players, rather than nurturing players that could play for us.
Any of those you mention above either do, could or have played for us currently.
Two of them are not in the team and I have my doubts about Happe.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:31 pm
by Sid Bishop
DuvB wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:43 pm
Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:12 am
ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:00 am
I think the wage cap was a terrible idea, and im surprised the club voted for it.
As one of the biggest budgets in league 2, we had an advantage when it came to bringing in new players, because we could offer more money, than most league 2 clubs, and probably a small handful of league 1 clubs....but thats now evaporated, and as the cost of living is higher in London, and your pounds dont go as far, teams outside london have an advantage
By voting in favour of a wage cap, we threw our advantage away IMO
Agree that this wage cap will work in favour of teams in the areas of England where the cost of living is far lower, in this case, London based clubs like Leyton Orient.
We may be a London-based club but that doesn’t mean that our players have to live in London. Throughout the leagues, many players have homes away from their club and either travel daily or rent a flat locally eg Coxy used to travel daily from Hayward Heath by train/tube. Which O’s players currently live in London? Youngsters living with parents maybe.
If you are renting or buying a house or flat outside of London, the cost of doing so in the Southern parts of England is far higher than in the Northern parts of England and Wales. Also the cost of traveling back and forth from home to club everyday day of the week could be expensive if you live a long way from the club.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:35 pm
by Sid Bishop
Still wrong wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:25 pm
LittleMate wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:08 pm
So anyway at the moment we have Happe, Kyprianou, Sotiriou are youth products. Personally Sotirou is having a backward season (looks like he's carrying too much weight/muscle compared to 2019-20). None of these will sell for the sort of money running a youth system requires (tbf Kyp needs another season to judge that).
Sargent? One in a long time of back up youth product keepers
Ogie - not sure he progressed through the youth system
Judd - never held down a place in the team.
Is the academy is working as it is?
No it’s not and it never will in the modern game for a club our size.
As we have seen, anyone who shows a little bit of promise will be taken off our hands for a few grand.
It will be far better to pick up Premier/Championship club cast offs.
They have almost certainly had better coaching and facilities. Just might be late developers.
We can cash in on that.
Also with good scouting, plenty of promising players can be found who are available for small transfer fees in the non league teams.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:36 pm
by Tent Keague
Still wrong wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:26 pm
Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:20 pm
LittleMate wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:08 pm
So anyway at the moment we have Happe, Kyprianou, Sotiriou are youth products. Personally Sotirou is having a backward season (looks like he's carrying too much weight/muscle compared to 2019-20). None of these will sell for the sort of money running a youth system requires (tbf Kyp needs another season to judge that).
Sargent? One in a long time of back up youth product keepers
Ogie - not sure he progressed through the youth system
Judd - never held down a place in the team.
Is the academy is working as it is?
Subjective isn't it. And as a side point what do people want an academy to achieve?
I'd say it is working because we couldn't afford to buy a Sotiriou, Kyprianou, or Happe if we had to. Plus as under 21's and youth they don't count towards the playing budget cap (I think they are all under 21).
It would appear that you're looking at an academy in terms of what we can get for players, rather than nurturing players that could play for us.
Any of those you mention above either do, could or have played for us currently.
Two of them are not in the team and I have my doubts about Happe.
As I say. Subjective. Happe is in the team, this forum was having babies about losing Sotiriou in the summer, and Kyprianou we have all raved about and I think at times has looked better than Cisse. They're being treated carefully. It's what should happen.
Judd in my opinion was our best right back. And it was a mistake to let him go but I'm sure there's a thread or two on here about that anyway.
Ogie from what little I've seen is solid and seems to be handling the league below well.
Sargent is perfectly placed as a backup keeper and still learning his trade.
If we didn't have the academy that is 6 more players we'd have needed to bring in to the club.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:38 pm
by Still wrong
Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:35 pm
Still wrong wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:25 pm
LittleMate wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:08 pm
So anyway at the moment we have Happe, Kyprianou, Sotiriou are youth products. Personally Sotirou is having a backward season (looks like he's carrying too much weight/muscle compared to 2019-20). None of these will sell for the sort of money running a youth system requires (tbf Kyp needs another season to judge that).
Sargent? One in a long time of back up youth product keepers
Ogie - not sure he progressed through the youth system
Judd - never held down a place in the team.
Is the academy is working as it is?
No it’s not and it never will in the modern game for a club our size.
As we have seen, anyone who shows a little bit of promise will be taken off our hands for a few grand.
It will be far better to pick up Premier/Championship club cast offs.
They have almost certainly had better coaching and facilities. Just might be late developers.
We can cash in on that.
Also with good scouting, plenty of promising players can be found who are available for small transfer fees in the non league teams.
Agreed Sid.
Lost count of how many non league players who were late developers and got sold for millions.
Peterborough seem to be very good at it.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:39 pm
by Tent Keague
Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:35 pm
Still wrong wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:25 pm
LittleMate wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:08 pm
So anyway at the moment we have Happe, Kyprianou, Sotiriou are youth products. Personally Sotirou is having a backward season (looks like he's carrying too much weight/muscle compared to 2019-20). None of these will sell for the sort of money running a youth system requires (tbf Kyp needs another season to judge that).
Sargent? One in a long time of back up youth product keepers
Ogie - not sure he progressed through the youth system
Judd - never held down a place in the team.
Is the academy is working as it is?
No it’s not and it never will in the modern game for a club our size.
As we have seen, anyone who shows a little bit of promise will be taken off our hands for a few grand.
It will be far better to pick up Premier/Championship club cast offs.
They have almost certainly had better coaching and facilities. Just might be late developers.
We can cash in on that.
Also with good scouting, plenty of promising players can be found who are available for small transfer fees in the non league teams.
You're right Sid. It shouldn't be about just having an academy or just signing players. It should be about having the best of both worlds.
As I mentioned in my previous post, if we didn't have the youth academy we'd have had to bring in at least 6 players for those places (possibly 8 if you include Shabani and Sweeney).
It's all those 'small' transfer fees that add up.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:39 pm
by Tent Keague
Still wrong wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:38 pm
Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:35 pm
Still wrong wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:25 pm
No it’s not and it never will in the modern game for a club our size.
As we have seen, anyone who shows a little bit of promise will be taken off our hands for a few grand.
It will be far better to pick up Premier/Championship club cast offs.
They have almost certainly had better coaching and facilities. Just might be late developers.
We can cash in on that.
Also with good scouting, plenty of promising players can be found who are available for small transfer fees in the non league teams.
Agreed Sid.
Lost count of how many non league players who were late developers and got sold for millions.
Peterborough seem to be very good at it.
Do Peterborough have an academy?
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:41 pm
by Tent Keague
Answered my own question. Yes they do. With plans to upgrade it to a category 2 academy with a view of bringing through 3 players per season in time for the 23/24 season.
Planting seeds for growth.
Sounds exactly like the O's are trying to do.
https://www.theposh.com/news/2020/augus ... -accepted/
“As widely advertised, our goal is to produce three home grown players each and every season from the 2023-2024 season and achieving this higher status will help facilitate that goal through increased academy funding, better coaching and a higher level of competitive games. Darragh, Randy and I have loved seeing multiple youth academy graduates play for the first team this year and we are excited about the future,” Neale said.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:57 pm
by Still wrong
Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:41 pm
Answered my own question. Yes they do. With plans to upgrade it to a category 2 academy with a view of bringing through 3 players per season in time for the 23/24 season.
Planting seeds for growth.
Sounds exactly like the O's are trying to do.
https://www.theposh.com/news/2020/augus ... -accepted/
“As widely advertised, our goal is to produce three home grown players each and every season from the 2023-2024 season and achieving this higher status will help facilitate that goal through increased academy funding, better coaching and a higher level of competitive games. Darragh, Randy and I have loved seeing multiple youth academy graduates play for the first team this year and we are excited about the future,” Neale said.
Think that is pie in the sky.
They haven’t managed to get loads of youth players in the first team yet, what makes them think they will in the future.
The fact is they will spend a load of cash on young players and they will be taken off their hands for next to nothing when they reach 16.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:22 pm
by Still wrong
Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:36 pm
Still wrong wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:26 pm
Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:20 pm
Subjective isn't it. And as a side point what do people want an academy to achieve?
I'd say it is working because we couldn't afford to buy a Sotiriou, Kyprianou, or Happe if we had to. Plus as under 21's and youth they don't count towards the playing budget cap (I think they are all under 21).
It would appear that you're looking at an academy in terms of what we can get for players, rather than nurturing players that could play for us.
Any of those you mention above either do, could or have played for us currently.
Two of them are not in the team and I have my doubts about Happe.
As I say. Subjective. Happe is in the team, this forum was having babies about losing Sotiriou in the summer, and Kyprianou we have all raved about and I think at times has looked better than Cisse. They're being treated carefully. It's what should happen.
Judd in my opinion was our best right back. And it was a mistake to let him go but I'm sure there's a thread or two on here about that anyway.
Ogie from what little I've seen is solid and seems to be handling the league below well.
Sargent is perfectly placed as a backup keeper and still learning his trade.
If we didn't have the academy that is 6 more players we'd have needed to bring in to the club.
These 6 might not even make it at league level.
Most can’t get in the team now.
We should be looking at bringing in players who have been let go by local Championship/Premiership clubs who will be hungry for a second chance.
Also look at non league.
A bloke we signed two years ago is now in L1.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:30 pm
by Thor
The higher your academy is rated the better chance you have of keeping the better players. As Tent said you get better quality coaches which produce better quality players which in time you hope will be good enough for the first team.
As a parent and I’m offered Orient who I think are level 3 academy or Charlton who are level 2 then it should be a given that my son will have better coaching at Charlton due to the level attained. He may have a better chance of making it at orient than Charlton as they’re a level above us this fhenstamdsrd is higher, but his coaching potential may not be fully realised due to the conditions offered, coaching received and general set up.
I think the route the club is taking is the right route.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:40 pm
by Ronnie Hotdogs
Any idea how they grade the academies and how it guarantees better coaching? I doubt any kids in the country were getting better than here under Andy Edwards and we were only level 3.
And how does this budget hing work? Could we just set up an U23 Academy and snap up 20-22 year old offcasts and get the same benefit?
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:48 pm
by Still wrong
Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:40 pm
Any idea how they grade the academies and how it guarantees better coaching? I doubt any kids in the country were getting better than here under Andy Edwards and we were only level 3.
And how does this budget hing work? Could we just set up an U23 Academy and snap up 20-22 year old offcasts and get the same benefit?
Exactly.
Being a level 2 will make no difference.
Bigger clubs will still nick your better kids, it will just cost them a bit more.
Any 15 year old who shows even a small bit of potential will be snapped up.
Worth a gamble at 100 k.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:50 pm
by Thor
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:56 pm
by Tent Keague
Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:40 pm
Any idea how they grade the academies and how it guarantees better coaching? I doubt any kids in the country were getting better than here under Andy Edwards and we were only level 3.
And how does this budget hing work? Could we just set up an U23 Academy and snap up 20-22 year old offcasts and get the same benefit?
There is no guarantee of anything. Just averages.
Do the coaches at Liverpool lay out the cones any better than they do in League Two?
If you have a bigger academy, with more coaches, teams, connections, etc the law of averages means that there is more chance of picking up a decent player and less chance of one slipping through the net.
Same as signing people. Sign enough of them like Brentford and Peterborough and some will get sold on, some will be good enough for the level you're at, and some will get released.
It shouldn't be as black or white as either having an academy or signing players. They can live together.
Personally I prefer organically growing the club through developing the academy, coaches, facilities, etc.
My worry about the signing model is what happens when you can't afford to sign players, or you have a couple of barren years where the ones you have signed aren't up to it.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:27 pm
by Still wrong
Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:56 pm
Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:40 pm
Any idea how they grade the academies and how it guarantees better coaching? I doubt any kids in the country were getting better than here under Andy Edwards and we were only level 3.
And how does this budget hing work? Could we just set up an U23 Academy and snap up 20-22 year old offcasts and get the same benefit?
There is no guarantee of anything. Just averages.
Do the coaches at Liverpool lay out the cones any better than they do in League Two?
If you have a bigger academy, with more coaches, teams, connections, etc the law of averages means that there is more chance of picking up a decent player and less chance of one slipping through the net.
Same as signing people. Sign enough of them like Brentford and Peterborough and some will get sold on, some will be good enough for the level you're at, and some will get released.
It shouldn't be as black or white as either having an academy or signing players. They can live together.
Personally I prefer organically growing the club through developing the academy, coaches, facilities, etc.
My worry about the signing model is what happens when you can't afford to sign players, or you have a couple of barren years where the ones you have signed aren't up to it.
I think you will find Liverpool Academy coaches are better than L2.
Brentford seem to be spot on with their signings.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:43 pm
by tuffers#1
Still wrong wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:30 pm
The trouble is we are not producing outstanding talent.
Any outstanding 16 year old will be taken off us for peanuts.
The best players we have signed and sold were developed at other clubs and were let go early.
Glen Roader, Laurie Cunningham, Phil Hoadley, Richard Cadette, Greg Berry, Alan Comfort, Ricky Otto, Peter Kitchen, Moses Adubajo, Matt Lockwood. Plus many many more.
None come through the Academy.
I will dispute Moses Odubajo wasnt a product of us or Laurie Cunningham
Both would proably have drifted out of the game had it not been for us picking them up
After there schoolboy football & gave them apprenticeship's/yts
Roeder the same .
Then ill give you players that we sold
Paddy Grealish , John Chiedozie , Chris Bart Williams
Josh Koroma & Gabriel Zakuani just for starters
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:47 pm
by tuffers#1
Still wrong wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:22 pm
These 6 might not even make it at league level.
Most can’t get in the team now.
We should be looking at bringing in players who have been let go by local Championship/Premiership clubs who will be hungry for a second chance.
Also look at non league.
A bloke we signed two years ago is now in L1.
What makes you think us doing the Brentford.thing will work for us .
How many other clubs are doing so well .
Again this is year 4 & we are league 2
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:25 am
by Still wrong
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:43 pm
Still wrong wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:30 pm
The trouble is we are not producing outstanding talent.
Any outstanding 16 year old will be taken off us for peanuts.
The best players we have signed and sold were developed at other clubs and were let go early.
Glen Roader, Laurie Cunningham, Phil Hoadley, Richard Cadette, Greg Berry, Alan Comfort, Ricky Otto, Peter Kitchen, Moses Adubajo, Matt Lockwood. Plus many many more.
None come through the Academy.
I will dispute Moses Odubajo wasnt a product of us or Laurie Cunningham
Both would proably have drifted out of the game had it not been for us picking them up
After there schoolboy football & gave them apprenticeship's/yts
Roeder the same .
Then ill give you players that we sold
Paddy Grealish , John Chiedozie , Chris Bart Williams
Josh Koroma & Gabriel Zakuani just for starters
Odubajo was rejected by Millwall and Cunningham and Roeder were rejected by Arsenal.
This is where we should be looking at.
Picking up big clubs rejects.
The above 3 were miles better than anything we have come through the current Academy system which has been in place for over 10 years.
Incidentally, Chiedozie signed as a 17 year old after a trial.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:28 am
by Still wrong
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:47 pm
Still wrong wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:22 pm
These 6 might not even make it at league level.
Most can’t get in the team now.
We should be looking at bringing in players who have been let go by local Championship/Premiership clubs who will be hungry for a second chance.
Also look at non league.
A bloke we signed two years ago is now in L1.
What makes you think us doing the Brentford.thing will work for us .
How many other clubs are doing so well .
Again this is year 4 & we are league 2
It’s common sense.
Why would you invest time and money in a prospect for someone to take him off your hands.
The only ones we keep will be the ones who have shown little promise and will probably never make it.
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:44 am
by tuffers#1
Still wrong wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:25 am
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:43 pm
Still wrong wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:30 pm
The trouble is we are not producing outstanding talent.
Any outstanding 16 year old will be taken off us for peanuts.
The best players we have signed and sold were developed at other clubs and were let go early.
Glen Roader, Laurie Cunningham, Phil Hoadley, Richard Cadette, Greg Berry, Alan Comfort, Ricky Otto, Peter Kitchen, Moses Adubajo, Matt Lockwood. Plus many many more.
None come through the Academy.
I will dispute Moses Odubajo wasnt a product of us or Laurie Cunningham
Both would proably have drifted out of the game had it not been for us picking them up
After there schoolboy football & gave them apprenticeship's/yts
Roeder the same .
Then ill give you players that we sold
Paddy Grealish , John Chiedozie , Chris Bart Williams
Josh Koroma & Gabriel Zakuani just for starters
Odubajo was rejected by Millwall and Cunningham and Roeder were rejected by Arsenal.
This is where we should be looking at.
Picking up big clubs rejects.
The above 3 were miles better than anything we have come through the current Academy system which has been in place for over 10 years.
Incidentally, Chiedozie signed as a 17 year old after a trial.
They were rejected as SCHOOL BOY forms ( very different)
Therefore they weren't part of a 70s youth system
As apprentices .
There youth Football That was all down to ( Leyton) Orient !
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:46 am
by tuffers#1
Still wrong wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:28 am
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:47 pm
What makes you think us doing the Brentford.thing will work for us .
How many other clubs are doing so well .
Again this is year 4 & we are league 2
It’s common sense.
Why would you invest time and money in a prospect for someone to take him off your hands.
The only ones we keep will be the ones who have shown little promise and will probably never make it.
Why would anyone invest in Football at all ?
The brentford owner owns 2 clubs
£192 million out of both clubs .
Just over £ 200 million put in as was stated on the
Story posted in the other thread about him
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:54 am
by Still wrong
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:46 am
Still wrong wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:28 am
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:47 pm
What makes you think us doing the Brentford.thing will work for us .
How many other clubs are doing so well .
Again this is year 4 & we are league 2
It’s common sense.
Why would you invest time and money in a prospect for someone to take him off your hands.
The only ones we keep will be the ones who have shown little promise and will probably never make it.
Why would anyone invest in Football at all ?
The brentford owner owns 2 clubs
£192 million out of both clubs .
Just over £ 200 million put in as was stated on the
Story posted in the other thread about him
What’s that got to do with the pros and cons of a Academy?
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:02 am
by tuffers#1
Still wrong wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:54 am
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:46 am
Still wrong wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:28 am
It’s common sense.
Why would you invest time and money in a prospect for someone to take him off your hands.
The only ones we keep will be the ones who have shown little promise and will probably never make it.
Why would anyone invest in Football at all ?
The brentford owner owns 2 clubs
£192 million out of both clubs .
Just over £ 200 million put in as was stated on the
Story posted in the other thread about him
What’s that got to do with the pros and cons of a Academy?
He hasnt made profit on his 2 clubs yet
1 of which he has been involved in since 2006.
You keep saying why waste money on an academy ,
Well why waste money not having one .
Re: Wage Cap
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:13 am
by Still wrong
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:02 am
Still wrong wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:54 am
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:46 am
Why would anyone invest in Football at all ?
The brentford owner owns 2 clubs
£192 million out of both clubs .
Just over £ 200 million put in as was stated on the
Story posted in the other thread about him
What’s that got to do with the pros and cons of a Academy?
He hasnt made profit on his 2 clubs yet
1 of which he has been involved in since 2006.
You keep saying why waste money on an academy ,
Well why waste money not having one .
Well it all depends on using your resources effectively.
He decided to dump the Academy and has made a profit 100 m on transfers as well as making Brentford a top 6 Championship side.
He wouldn’t have done that by bringing through his own players because the best ones would have been nicked before making the first team.
