Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Orient_Man_And_Boy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:00 pm I bet the communist super-powers are enjoying the sights coming out of USA.

Who are these "communist super-powers" you speak of?

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:06 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:56 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 am Cant they just split the country?

Last time they tried that it didn't work out too well.

Up until now the general direction of human societal evolution has been for larger units (villages to city states to nation states to federal states etc). It is interesting that we seem to have growing calls for some reversal of that trend.

I think you get to a certain size and it doesnt make sense. Its not fair for vast lefty areas to be ruled by Trump or Johnson and vice versa.

Yeah, you may be right. Larger legislative units will inevitably mean more people feeling that their particular values are not represented. It's just that, throughout history, smaller units have resulted in increased conflict.

As the smaller states account for a smaller and smaller a proportion of the population, the senate is going to have real problems with legitimacy. Republicans will be able to have a stranglehold over the senate despite not representing an ever growing majority of views.

Think a common strand in western countries declining is that they are wedded to democratic structures that are no longer fit for purpose. You see it here, in France and particularly badly in America. Their existing systems are so heavily associated with the good old days that they can't be changed.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:20 pm Think a common strand in western countries declining is that they are wedded to democratic structures that are no longer fit for purpose. You see it here, in France and particularly badly in America. Their existing systems are so heavily associated with the good old days that they can't be changed.

I agree, their weaknesses are their often what have been their strengths. Although I have no idea what the solution is.

My concern is the way the police behaved compared to the BLM protests a few months back.
In the BLM protests the police were brutal, smashing into protesters with sickening force, yesterday, they were like pussycats with these far right , white supremacist loons...theres even a video doing the rounds on Twitter showing the police opened the gates to let this mob in.
Thats because IMO, many of the police share the same views as the mob.....white supremacists , etc.
The police in America are corrupt, and in any democracy, thats a massive concern

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:28 pm My concern is the way the police behaved compared to the BLM protests a few months back.
In the BLM protests the police were brutal, smashing into protesters with sickening force, yesterday, they were like pussycats with these far right , white supremacist loons...theres even a video doing the rounds on Twitter showing the police opened the gates to let this mob in.
Thats because IMO, many of the police share the same views as the mob.....white supremacists , etc.
The police in America are corrupt, and in any democracy, thats a massive concern

Probably opening the doors was the right thing. I think if they had reacted with force there would have been many more casualties and that would have enabled Trump to bang on about how oppressed he is.

Agree it would have been a different story if they'd been black though.

The Rocket Man missed a trick yesterday. Would have been an ideal night to try out his missiles.

o-no wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:37 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:28 pm My concern is the way the police behaved compared to the BLM protests a few months back.
In the BLM protests the police were brutal, smashing into protesters with sickening force, yesterday, they were like pussycats with these far right , white supremacist loons...theres even a video doing the rounds on Twitter showing the police opened the gates to let this mob in.
Thats because IMO, many of the police share the same views as the mob.....white supremacists , etc.
The police in America are corrupt, and in any democracy, thats a massive concern

Probably opening the doors was the right thing. I think if they had reacted with force there would have been many more casualties and that would have enabled Trump to bang on about how oppressed he is.

Agree it would have been a different story if they'd been black though.

You don't open the doors of a democratic institution to fascists. You acquaint their heads with the pavement.

I'm sure Grover Cleveland supporters were making the same not fit for purpose arguments back in 1888 when he won the popular vote but lost the election.

The fact the Senate's makeup disproportionately favours states over electors is a vital part of having a federal democracy the size of the USA. This in turn is balanced out by the House and is one of the checks and balances that stops the executive branch of government from overstepping the mark and is a reason for the sustained success of the USA.

The USA is in a constant state of change anyway, former Confederate states were reliably blue until the 80s when they switched red. Now you're seeing them flip again in Virginia, Georgia, and to a lesser extent Texas and N. Carolina as these places become more ethnically diverse and college educated.

The Mindsweep wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:15 pm

Orient_Man_And_Boy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:00 pm I bet the communist super-powers are enjoying the sights coming out of USA.

Who are these "communist super-powers" you speak of?

Russia and China.

The balances they have were the reason they had the bloodiest civil war of the 19th century and Jim Crow until the 60s.

When the judiciary has become as politicised as it has, then having a senate wield power over appointments that rule on federal law becomes unsustainable. You will have minority rule on individual rights. This is compounded when you have a hor that is wildly gerrymandered and state legislatures also carved up to result in sustained and unrepresentative republican rule. See also widespread voter supersession of poorer voters in republican states.

The senate was designed with a largely agrarian society in mind.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:12 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:37 am

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:49 am

This board goes from worse to worse when you allow these sorts of comments.

Dwarfy was warned.

I try to censor out the abuse and people dont like that either.

Interested to see what does warrant a ban after those two comments but ill trust your judgement.

It’s interesting to see that you feel that your original comment was ok.

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:28 pm My concern is the way the police behaved compared to the BLM protests a few months back.
In the BLM protests the police were brutal, smashing into protesters with sickening force, yesterday, they were like pussycats with these far right , white supremacist loons...theres even a video doing the rounds on Twitter showing the police opened the gates to let this mob in.
Thats because IMO, many of the police share the same views as the mob.....white supremacists , etc.
The police in America are corrupt, and in any democracy, thats a massive concern

Total opposite of the way our police behaved in the summer.

Are our police massive supporters of BLM?

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:04 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:12 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:37 am
Dwarfy was warned.

I try to censor out the abuse and people dont like that either.

Interested to see what does warrant a ban after those two comments but ill trust your judgement.

It’s interesting to see that you feel that your original comment was ok.

Coming from you!

Sorry, i'll reference brown people spreading covid next time, just for you. Didnt mean to offend or upset you.

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:08 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:28 pm My concern is the way the police behaved compared to the BLM protests a few months back.
In the BLM protests the police were brutal, smashing into protesters with sickening force, yesterday, they were like pussycats with these far right , white supremacist loons...theres even a video doing the rounds on Twitter showing the police opened the gates to let this mob in.
Thats because IMO, many of the police share the same views as the mob.....white supremacists , etc.
The police in America are corrupt, and in any democracy, thats a massive concern

Total opposite of the way our police behaved in the summer.

Are our police massive supporters of BLM?

Hopefully. They are just people after all.

Bet you can book real cheap holidays in the US at the moment. Any takers?

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:27 pm Bet you can book real cheap holidays in the US at the moment. Any takers?

It's such a truly amazing country. Just shame it's full of americans.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:51 pm The balances they have were the reason they had the bloodiest civil war of the 19th century and Jim Crow until the 60s.

When the judiciary has become as politicised as it has, then having a senate wield power over appointments that rule on federal law becomes unsustainable. You will have minority rule on individual rights. This is compounded when you have a hor that is wildly gerrymandered and state legislatures also carved up to result in sustained and unrepresentative republican rule. See also widespread voter supersession of poorer voters in republican states.

The senate was designed with a largely agrarian society in mind.

I mean the Taiping civil war that ran concurrently killed at least 20 million more but hey.

The checks and balances also preclude the Executive from declaring war at will, override vetos and act the ultimate arbitrator for the executive (good things). Like any democratic system they have downsides too (fillibustering for example).

I take your point on the judiciary becoming over politicised. It is however split between the nomination and appointment which, though historically hasnt blocked appointments I imagine it will soon.

Voter suppression isn't a fault of the constitution, it's just political shithouserry

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:18 pm

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:04 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:12 am
Interested to see what does warrant a ban after those two comments but ill trust your judgement.

It’s interesting to see that you feel that your original comment was ok.

Coming from you!

Sorry, i'll reference brown people spreading covid next time, just for you. Didnt mean to offend or upset you.

I don’t get offended by comments on message boards, unlike some, but just pointing out your double standards.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:32 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:27 pm Bet you can book real cheap holidays in the US at the moment. Any takers?

It's such a truly amazing country. Just shame it's full of americans.

Look another double standard.

If I said that we also had an amazing country but that it was full of foreigners no doubt you would shout racism

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:41 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:32 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:27 pm Bet you can book real cheap holidays in the US at the moment. Any takers?

It's such a truly amazing country. Just shame it's full of americans.

Look another double standard.

If I said that we also had an amazing country but that it was full of foreigners no doubt you would shout racism

You have said pretty much that, haven't you? And it is racist? Not sure what your point is.

You're a bit out of your depth here, and it's not even that deep yet. give it up.

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:41 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:32 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:27 pm Bet you can book real cheap holidays in the US at the moment. Any takers?

It's such a truly amazing country. Just shame it's full of americans.

Look another double standard.

If I said that we also had an amazing country but that it was full of foreigners no doubt you would shout racism

Is it a double standards to talk about standards when crying about some made up 'fact' you made up about 'certain' people in ilford spreading covid?

StillSpike wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:45 am

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:48 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:06 pm

FFS! It's Scotchlandshire.

Doesn’t he own half of Scotland?

Personally i think wee Nicola's wrong on this one. We should let him in - the courses are all frozen anyway so he wouldn't get to play golf. Then, when the USA ask to extradite him on terrorism and treason charges, we could trade him for Harry Dunn's killer.

It's a win/win.

Or we could always extradite him to Iraq

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... 1610031285

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:37 pm

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:51 pm The balances they have were the reason they had the bloodiest civil war of the 19th century and Jim Crow until the 60s.

When the judiciary has become as politicised as it has, then having a senate wield power over appointments that rule on federal law becomes unsustainable. You will have minority rule on individual rights. This is compounded when you have a hor that is wildly gerrymandered and state legislatures also carved up to result in sustained and unrepresentative republican rule. See also widespread voter supersession of poorer voters in republican states.

The senate was designed with a largely agrarian society in mind.

I mean the Taiping civil war that ran concurrently killed at least 20 million more but hey.

The checks and balances also preclude the Executive from declaring war at will, override vetos and act the ultimate arbitrator for the executive (good things). Like any democratic system they have downsides too (fillibustering for example).

I take your point on the judiciary becoming over politicised. It is however split between the nomination and appointment which, though historically hasnt blocked appointments I imagine it will soon.

Voter suppression isn't a fault of the constitution, it's just political shithouserry

As a proportion of population, I was taught the civil war killed the most of any war of that century, but not fussed if I'm wrong.

Saying that a constitutions failure to protect rights supposedly enshrined isn't a fault with the constitution is an odd take. Constitutions exist to reduce the scope of political shithousery. That's kind of the whole point and why amendments 13-15 took place. Voter suppression has its links back to Jim Crow and beyond that slavery. There's a reason why it disportionately impacts black Americans.

Not disputing there are upshots to their constitution. But like any old political system, it needs to evolve to meet current needs. Trump has exposed it's massive limitations when it comes to presidential powers and Mitch McConnell has exposed why having minority rule can be damaging. If you want proof of that, look at Obama making a nomination in his last year and have it rejected by the same republican led senate that then approved a Trump nominee in almost the exact same scenario. The electoral college makes even less sense. It was created when states didn't even need to take a popular vote, they just sent electors to Congress.

I don't think you can look at American politics and say that it is fit for purpose. The senate has gone from being something that protects against majoritarian overreach to something that allows minority imposition onto the majority. Seems unsustainable to me as this gets worse over coming years.

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:41 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:32 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:27 pm Bet you can book real cheap holidays in the US at the moment. Any takers?

It's such a truly amazing country. Just shame it's full of americans.

Look another double standard

If I said that we also had an amazing country but that it was full of foreigners no doubt you would shout racism

He didnt say America is great but its full of Foreigners
He said America is great except its full of Americans .