Independent Leyton Orient Forum

RedO wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:48 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:26 pm Instead of making lots of losses you minimise them down, doh! Then the system will pay for itself and contribute in A positive net cash effect than a current negative net cash operation.

If it pays for itself over a 10 year cycle, this means the income derived - from selling youth products, namely that 1 big star - meets the costs over the 10 year period.

If we were to make it pay for itself over a 3 year cycle, this merely means the income over the 3 year period meets the costs over the 3 years.

There’s no difference over a 10 year period. It’s still breaking even.

Come on mate, you're good with numbers you should be able to see the benefit to the owners

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:04 am I don't know if its laughable to, he came through our youth system and turned professional, but I get you. Happy to take it out.

15.3%. Not bad going when you consider the other side of the coin mentioned above, those that leave for higher (or are released).

I'm not sure i'll convince you on this despite what I think is pretty good evidence and I doubt you'll do the same for me, so agree to disagree!

Fair do's, we can agree on that

Nothing would make me happier than seeing 4 or 5 of our youth team products playing week in week out, but due to a combination of factors - best young prospects pinched before they make the first team, lack of faith demonstrated by management in those that we keep, those that do get to play being sold too early - that isn't happening.

Because of that, i wouldn't be complaining if it was announced that the academy wasn't financially viable and we closed it.

Adz wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:33 am

RedO wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:48 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:26 pm Instead of making lots of losses you minimise them down, doh! Then the system will pay for itself and contribute in A positive net cash effect than a current negative net cash operation.

If it pays for itself over a 10 year cycle, this means the income derived - from selling youth products, namely that 1 big star - meets the costs over the 10 year period.

If we were to make it pay for itself over a 3 year cycle, this merely means the income over the 3 year period meets the costs over the 3 years.

There’s no difference over a 10 year period. It’s still breaking even.

Come on mate, you're good with numbers you should be able to see the benefit to the owners

Of course I can see the short term cash flow advantage.

I just wonder if Thor actually understands what he's saying, and that paying for itself over 3 years is any better than over 10.

Yeah, I doubt it

Adz wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:29 am But there's more to it than money. It is an integral part of us being a community club.

Some good posts on this page for and against.

Here's a question for you all, if you can only pick one from successful club (let's say for argument's sake steady Championship football) or community club which would you go for?

I dont really get what people mean by a community club tbh. The phrase is banded about without much meaning. There's things that every club, as far as i can tell, does. I dont know what we do (especially in the last few years when £££ has meant more than moral and community justification), that goes above and beyond what any other club of similar size does?

gshaw wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:39 pm

Adz wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:29 am But there's more to it than money. It is an integral part of us being a community club.

Some good posts on this page for and against.

Here's a question for you all, if you can only pick one from successful club (let's say for argument's sake steady Championship football) or community club which would you go for?

Community club for me. I'm sure everyone will pick unsuccessful community club over successful club. Good question.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:48 pm I dont really get what people mean by a community club tbh. The phrase is banded about without much meaning. There's things that every club, as far as i can tell, does. I dont know what we do (especially in the last few years when £££ has meant more than moral and community justification), that goes above and beyond what any other club of similar size does?

You're right. I think a part of why ours is important is that we had the first community programme of its type in the country and a model that has been long followed. Our guy got an MBE for it. So ours is a little more integrated and wide ranging than most of our size.

the real question is are we actually saying that a community club cannot be successful?

I'd love us to be a successful club, but not sure i'd want to lose the community element of it, as for me thats what makes Leyton Orient, I love the fact you feel like it really is PUR club, not just the owners plaything, or just a business that is soulless and corporate

So to answer the question in the manner in which it was asked...i'd choose community club, because anything less wouldnt be Orient

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:48 pm I dont really get what people mean by a community club tbh. The phrase is banded about without much meaning. There's things that every club, as far as i can tell, does. I dont know what we do (especially in the last few years when £££ has meant more than moral and community justification), that goes above and beyond what any other club of similar size does?

Exactly. The 'community' aspect thing is just something that unsuccessful clubs latch on to.

You go and ask fans of all the other sh*t football clubs up and down the country and I'm sure they'd all say that they are special, different, community focused etc.

Jaggsy1979 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:09 pm
I love the fact you feel like it really is PUR club, not just the owners plaything, or just a business that is soulless and corporate

Some people love a hashtag, don't they?

#ourclub

#ourclub who got into bed with the s*n to get a few more quid rather than perhaps a local business. Fine, there's logic to it financially, but some of the same people latching onto that aspect also like to rave about how community focussed we are.

Unfortunately, and this wont be a popular point, but in recent years one of my personal problems with the club is that we're not REALLY a community club anymore in our decision making and we aren't successful either. So one isn't a pay off for another, we are in worst of both worlds.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:45 pm #ourclub who got into bed with the s*n to get a few more quid rather than perhaps a local business. Fine, there's logic to it financially, but some of the same people latching onto that aspect also like to rave about how community focussed we are.

Unfortunately, and this wont be a popular point, but in recent years one of my personal problems with the club is that we're not REALLY a community club anymore in our decision making and we aren't successful either. So one isn't a pay off for another, we are in worst of both worlds.

Don't criticise the club for the sun sponsorship deal, you'll get called a Corbyn-loving commie by the powers that be.

RedO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:51 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:45 pm #ourclub who got into bed with the s*n to get a few more quid rather than perhaps a local business. Fine, there's logic to it financially, but some of the same people latching onto that aspect also like to rave about how community focussed we are.

Unfortunately, and this wont be a popular point, but in recent years one of my personal problems with the club is that we're not REALLY a community club anymore in our decision making and we aren't successful either. So one isn't a pay off for another, we are in worst of both worlds.

Don't criticise the club for the sun sponsorship deal, you'll get called a Corbyn-loving commie by the powers that be.

I thrive off that sh*t, bro.

Did you get one of those phone calls too?

What pro clubs do stuff for their community? they all do is my guess It’s just the least successful ones who push that aspect a little harder.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:48 pm I dont really get what people mean by a community club tbh. The phrase is banded about without much meaning. There's things that every club, as far as i can tell, does. I dont know what we do (especially in the last few years when £££ has meant more than moral and community justification), that goes above and beyond what any other club of similar size does?

Here you go

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4590&p=125063#p125063

Jaggsy1979 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:09 pm the real question is are we actually saying that a community club cannot be successful?

I'd love us to be a successful club, but not sure i'd want to lose the community element of it, as for me thats what makes Leyton Orient, I love the fact you feel like it really is PUR club, not just the owners plaything, or just a business that is soulless and corporate

So to answer the question in the manner in which it was asked...i'd choose community club, because anything less wouldnt be Orient

In the context of the youth development vs transfers point there is an argument that the money could be spent directly on the first team, making us more competitive at the cost of the youth development angle. Other clubs have weighed up and dropped the academy as a result. Chasing success > community in those cases.

Personally I just want to see Orient successful on the pitch. I loved it in the title season that other clubs would post after games that we were a dirty team as it was so un-Orient esque to do that.

However now I think we're heading back to that "nice but toothless" image on the football side, despite the cracking work done on PR, streaming and sponsorhip that's got the drive and ambition of a club far higher up the food chain.

However now I think we're heading back to that "nice but toothless" image on the football side,
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How do you come to that conclusion?