Independent Leyton Orient Forum

AckneyAwks wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:12 am Age and experience is important but so is talent. The people in charge will obviously have thier views and opinions on Ruel and his value. There is no guarantee that he will become a player of quality but i would rather pay him £3.000.00 a week than two average journeyman £1.500.00 a week each with no sell on value.

It’s not an either/or choice though is it

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:45 am

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:29 pm

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:09 pm
So bonuses included let's throw down a quarter of a million pound on wages and bonuses (give and take a few Bob) on an unproven youth player.

Because you guarantee that he'll score plenty of goals for us and then at the end of the season we'll get £800k back.

Do you have next week's EuroMillions numbers too? Or the next winner of the National?

What if Ruel pulls up injured? What if we decide to change tactics and not play to his strength? What happens if transfer fees become a thing of the past in post-Covid World?

There are too many variables in your argument to splash out £250k on him.

I like him, he's direct and different to what we have. But at the minute I wouldn't say that he's much better standard than other forwards we could pick up out there.

Liked him from my first viewing of him at Burnham Ramblers in a pre season game three years ago and he is going to be a very decent player, but no one can say what he will be worth is a couple of years. If he goes on and turns out to be as good as COYOs thinks we could get a nice sell on with a few riders on top for appearances etc. Trouble is If you are going to pay him an elevated wage now to keep him you are also going to be paying an elevated agent fee. IMHO the damage has already been done should have given him two or three year contract last season on his potential. Lack of foresight from the transfer committee.

Reminds me of Aaron McClean who we released on afree and who went on to have a decent EFL career.

Nothing like Aaron. He had to drop down to non league for a few years to kick start his career.
Ruel will be going to someone in the divisions above.

All this talk of paying Ruel £2k per week is a bit much. But if his current contract is paying him less than, say, Alabi was on, that’s a disgrace and nothing short of age discrimination.

My point is that Aaron like Ruel had a lot of talent he played just 5 times and was sub 35 times, had he played more (and yes he was unlucky with injury) we might have been the team that benefited from him, We let him go just as he was on the up as a player, Grays picked him up and sold him for £150k two years later. Another one when he was fit to play ended up benched or left out. We havent handled our young talent well have we as opposed to a team like Crewe who put the kids in and reap the benefits.

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:20 am

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:45 am

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:29 pm

Liked him from my first viewing of him at Burnham Ramblers in a pre season game three years ago and he is going to be a very decent player, but no one can say what he will be worth is a couple of years. If he goes on and turns out to be as good as COYOs thinks we could get a nice sell on with a few riders on top for appearances etc. Trouble is If you are going to pay him an elevated wage now to keep him you are also going to be paying an elevated agent fee. IMHO the damage has already been done should have given him two or three year contract last season on his potential. Lack of foresight from the transfer committee.

Reminds me of Aaron McClean who we released on afree and who went on to have a decent EFL career.

Nothing like Aaron. He had to drop down to non league for a few years to kick start his career.
Ruel will be going to someone in the divisions above.

All this talk of paying Ruel £2k per week is a bit much. But if his current contract is paying him less than, say, Alabi was on, that’s a disgrace and nothing short of age discrimination.

My point is that Aaron like Ruel had a lot of talent he played just 5 times and was sub 35 times, had he played more (and yes he was unlucky with injury) we might have been the team that benefited from him, We let him go, Grays picked him up and sold him for £150k two years later. Another one who was fit to play and ended up benched. We havent handled our young talent well have we as opposed to a team like Crewe who put the kids in and reap the benefits.

Lots of sense in the post above.
Its always perturbed me that youngsters dont get picked ahead of seasoned players, simply because theyre young.
Talent wins every time for me, over older lower league players.
Its only by playing these talented youngsters, that they get experience.
I hope the other talented youngsters play a lot of games this coming season. Kyprianou, Ogie, Shabani, are all good enough to play league 2 football, and a few others are only a tad behind them

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:27 am

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:20 am

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:45 am

Nothing like Aaron. He had to drop down to non league for a few years to kick start his career.
Ruel will be going to someone in the divisions above.

All this talk of paying Ruel £2k per week is a bit much. But if his current contract is paying him less than, say, Alabi was on, that’s a disgrace and nothing short of age discrimination.

My point is that Aaron like Ruel had a lot of talent he played just 5 times and was sub 35 times, had he played more (and yes he was unlucky with injury) we might have been the team that benefited from him, We let him go, Grays picked him up and sold him for £150k two years later. Another one who was fit to play and ended up benched. We havent handled our young talent well have we as opposed to a team like Crewe who put the kids in and reap the benefits.

Lots of sense in the post above.
Its always perturbed me that youngsters dont get picked ahead of seasoned players, simply because theyre young.
Talent wins every time for me, over older lower league players.
Its only by playing these talented youngsters, that they get experience.
I hope the other talented youngsters play a lot of games this coming season. Kyprianou, Ogie, Shabani, are all good enough to play league 2 football, and a few others are only a tad behind them

They certainly are.

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:54 am If you’d actually make a 20-year-old who’s played 12 games the club's highest paid player, you may want to ask yourself “why am I not a professional football manager?”

Have I said he should be the highest paid player?

But he is absolutely worth the same wage - more, in my opinion - as any of Angol, Wilko or Johnson. Do you think he isn't?

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:27 am

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:20 am

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:45 am

Nothing like Aaron. He had to drop down to non league for a few years to kick start his career.
Ruel will be going to someone in the divisions above.

All this talk of paying Ruel £2k per week is a bit much. But if his current contract is paying him less than, say, Alabi was on, that’s a disgrace and nothing short of age discrimination.

My point is that Aaron like Ruel had a lot of talent he played just 5 times and was sub 35 times, had he played more (and yes he was unlucky with injury) we might have been the team that benefited from him, We let him go, Grays picked him up and sold him for £150k two years later. Another one who was fit to play and ended up benched. We havent handled our young talent well have we as opposed to a team like Crewe who put the kids in and reap the benefits.

Lots of sense in the post above.
Its always perturbed me that youngsters dont get picked ahead of seasoned players, simply because theyre young.
Talent wins every time for me, over older lower league players.
Its only by playing these talented youngsters, that they get experience.
I hope the other talented youngsters play a lot of games this coming season. Kyprianou, Ogie, Shabani, are all good enough to play league 2 football, and a few others are only a tad behind them

Being 100% truthful here, we have each of those players starting regularly next season and we're in 17th and 5 points off the trap door, you won't be screaming that we didn't replace experience with experience?

You can honestly say you won't moan that we didn't replace senior wage players with senior wage players? You won't say we took the cheap option?

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:16 am

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:54 am If you’d actually make a 20-year-old who’s played 12 games the club's highest paid player, you may want to ask yourself “why am I not a professional football manager?”

Have I said he should be the highest paid player?

But he is absolutely worth the same wage - more, in my opinion - as any of Angol, Wilko or Johnson. Do you think he isn't?

How many pro games has Sotiriou played? Who knows if he can continue developing and scoring goals? Paying through the nose for Sotiriou would be a huge gamble IMO.

DuvB wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:23 am

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:16 am

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:54 am If you’d actually make a 20-year-old who’s played 12 games the club's highest paid player, you may want to ask yourself “why am I not a professional football manager?”

Have I said he should be the highest paid player?

But he is absolutely worth the same wage - more, in my opinion - as any of Angol, Wilko or Johnson. Do you think he isn't?

How many pro games has Sotiriou played? Who knows if he can continue developing and scoring goals? Paying through the nose for Sotiriou would be a huge gamble IMO.

It's a gamble when ever you sign a player. And the players we have in that position - Angol, Wilkinson, Johnson and even Alabi last season - were all gambles to varying degrees.

If we keep Ruel, he will be one of the top strikers in this division at the end of next season. That's pretty obvious, isn't it?

I think also the way modern football is in the Premier League era, we put so much on young players as soon as they get a game. We have done it at LOFC with Happe, we're doing it with Sotoriou. If they play a little and do well rather than 'he could be a great League One player one day' (a good achievement as we're aiming to make those players) we start building up hypothetical Premier League careers. They can happen but it's unlikely. Sotoriou is doing really well and I'd love to see him given more opportunities but it needs to be sensible. Every club thinks they have those players, they don't.

Wasn't long ago players would be 19/20 and had played 150 games in the old second or third division but didn't get collected in the way Chelsea keep youngsters now so wouldn't get a move and it gave them time to develop properly. You get players like Dominic Solanke, look decent for about 20 games and they get a cap. It is all a bit much.

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:29 am

DuvB wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:23 am

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:16 am

Have I said he should be the highest paid player?

But he is absolutely worth the same wage - more, in my opinion - as any of Angol, Wilko or Johnson. Do you think he isn't?

How many pro games has Sotiriou played? Who knows if he can continue developing and scoring goals? Paying through the nose for Sotiriou would be a huge gamble IMO.

It's a gamble when ever you sign a player. And the players we have in that position - Angol, Wilkinson, Johnson and even Alabi last season - were all gambles to varying degrees.

If we keep Ruel, he will be one of the top strikers in this division at the end of next season. That's pretty obvious, isn't it?

Not at all obvious. Conjecture about a player who has played a played a handful of pro games.

The 24/25 year old strikers apparently ahead of him and all deserving of bigger wages have all only played a handful of pro games as well.

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:32 am I think also the way modern football is in the Premier League era, we put so much on young players as soon as they get a game. We have done it at LOFC with Happe, we're doing it with Sotoriou. If they play a little and do well rather than 'he could be a great League One player one day' (a good achievement as we're aiming to make those players) we start building up hypothetical Premier League careers. They can happen but it's unlikely. Sotoriou is doing really well and I'd love to see him given more opportunities but it needs to be sensible. Every club thinks they have those players, they don't.

Wasn't long ago players would be 19/20 and had played 150 games in the old second or third division but didn't get collected in the way Chelsea keep youngsters now so wouldn't get a move and it gave them time to develop properly. You get players like Dominic Solanke, look decent for about 20 games and they get a cap. It is all a bit much.

Who is talking about the Premier League?

I totally agree there's a balance to be had, that these youngsters need to be eased in and properly managed, but that is not what's happening.

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:22 am

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:27 am

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:20 am

My point is that Aaron like Ruel had a lot of talent he played just 5 times and was sub 35 times, had he played more (and yes he was unlucky with injury) we might have been the team that benefited from him, We let him go, Grays picked him up and sold him for £150k two years later. Another one who was fit to play and ended up benched. We havent handled our young talent well have we as opposed to a team like Crewe who put the kids in and reap the benefits.

Lots of sense in the post above.
Its always perturbed me that youngsters dont get picked ahead of seasoned players, simply because theyre young.
Talent wins every time for me, over older lower league players.
Its only by playing these talented youngsters, that they get experience.
I hope the other talented youngsters play a lot of games this coming season. Kyprianou, Ogie, Shabani, are all good enough to play league 2 football, and a few others are only a tad behind them

Being 100% truthful here, we have each of those players starting regularly next season and we're in 17th and 5 points off the trap door, you won't be screaming that we didn't replace experience with experience?

You can honestly say you won't moan that we didn't replace senior wage players with senior wage players? You won't say we took the cheap option?

No.. Because if we play these talented young players, we will be at the top end of the league. They are miles better than the old tired players
I would rather Ogie, over Coulson all day long
I would rather Kyprianou over any midfielder we have, all day long
I would rather Sotiriou, over Angell, or Wilkinson, all day long etc etc.
It won't happen because Ling prefers tired old pros, to young guns

The thing that's confusing me about all this is why he's not getting slagged off for not signing a new contract a la porter, adeboyejo, dalby, etc . You lot have changed

Adz wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:11 pm The thing that's confusing me about all this is why he's not getting slagged off for not signing a new contract a la porter, adeboyejo, dalby, etc . You lot have changed

I think it's because people are getting resigned to the enetivable

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:16 am

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:54 am If you’d actually make a 20-year-old who’s played 12 games the club's highest paid player, you may want to ask yourself “why am I not a professional football manager?”

Have I said he should be the highest paid player?

But he is absolutely worth the same wage - more, in my opinion - as any of Angol, Wilko or Johnson. Do you think he isn't?

He's played 12 games in League football. Of course he isn't worth the same wage as Angol or Wilkinson yet.

If he smashes in 20-25 for us next season, then he might have a case.

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:56 am

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:22 am

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:27 am
Lots of sense in the post above.
Its always perturbed me that youngsters dont get picked ahead of seasoned players, simply because theyre young.
Talent wins every time for me, over older lower league players.
Its only by playing these talented youngsters, that they get experience.
I hope the other talented youngsters play a lot of games this coming season. Kyprianou, Ogie, Shabani, are all good enough to play league 2 football, and a few others are only a tad behind them

Being 100% truthful here, we have each of those players starting regularly next season and we're in 17th and 5 points off the trap door, you won't be screaming that we didn't replace experience with experience?

You can honestly say you won't moan that we didn't replace senior wage players with senior wage players? You won't say we took the cheap option?

No.. Because if we play these talented young players, we will be at the top end of the league. They are miles better than the old tired players
I would rather Ogie, over Coulson all day long
I would rather Kyprianou over any midfielder we have, all day long
I would rather Sotiriou, over Angell, or Wilkinson, all day long etc etc.
It won't happen because Ling prefers tired old pros, to young guns

Hmmm OK! Well if you're being honest. Fair enough.

What about when we were playing; Abrahams (Norwich), Koroma (Huddersfield), Alzate (Brighton and Colombia), Dalby (Leeds and Watford), Adeboyejo (Barnsley), Semedo (Serie D), Mezague (Belgium Premier League), Massey (Wigan), Janse (Venlo in the Eredevise), Nomo (Portuguese 2nd Div)?

All of those were talented young players and all of those played for us. In this division. As we got relegated out of it for the first time ever.

Was you not calling for some experienced signings back then?

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:39 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:56 am

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:22 am

Being 100% truthful here, we have each of those players starting regularly next season and we're in 17th and 5 points off the trap door, you won't be screaming that we didn't replace experience with experience?

You can honestly say you won't moan that we didn't replace senior wage players with senior wage players? You won't say we took the cheap option?

No.. Because if we play these talented young players, we will be at the top end of the league. They are miles better than the old tired players
I would rather Ogie, over Coulson all day long
I would rather Kyprianou over any midfielder we have, all day long
I would rather Sotiriou, over Angell, or Wilkinson, all day long etc etc.
It won't happen because Ling prefers tired old pros, to young guns

Hmmm OK! Well if you're being honest. Fair enough.

What about when we were playing; Abrahams (Norwich), Koroma (Huddersfield), Alzate (Brighton and Colombia), Dalby (Leeds and Watford), Adeboyejo (Barnsley), Semedo (Serie D), Mezague (Belgium Premier League), Massey (Wigan), Janse (Venlo in the Eredevise), Nomo (Portuguese 2nd Div)?

All of those were talented young players and all of those played for us. In this division. As we got relegated out of it for the first time ever.

Was you not calling for some experienced signings back then?

And that kid upfront for Southampton, doing well in the premier, didn’t he use to be one of ours as well ???

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:30 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:16 am

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:54 am If you’d actually make a 20-year-old who’s played 12 games the club's highest paid player, you may want to ask yourself “why am I not a professional football manager?”

Have I said he should be the highest paid player?

But he is absolutely worth the same wage - more, in my opinion - as any of Angol, Wilko or Johnson. Do you think he isn't?

He's played 12 games in League football. Of course he isn't worth the same wage as Angol or Wilkinson yet.

If he smashes in 20-25 for us next season, then he might have a case.

What’s Angol done?

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:39 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:56 am

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:22 am

Being 100% truthful here, we have each of those players starting regularly next season and we're in 17th and 5 points off the trap door, you won't be screaming that we didn't replace experience with experience?

You can honestly say you won't moan that we didn't replace senior wage players with senior wage players? You won't say we took the cheap option?

No.. Because if we play these talented young players, we will be at the top end of the league. They are miles better than the old tired players
I would rather Ogie, over Coulson all day long
I would rather Kyprianou over any midfielder we have, all day long
I would rather Sotiriou, over Angell, or Wilkinson, all day long etc etc.
It won't happen because Ling prefers tired old pros, to young guns

Hmmm OK! Well if you're being honest. Fair enough.

What about when we were playing; Abrahams (Norwich), Koroma (Huddersfield), Alzate (Brighton and Colombia), Dalby (Leeds and Watford), Adeboyejo (Barnsley), Semedo (Serie D), Mezague (Belgium Premier League), Massey (Wigan), Janse (Venlo in the Eredevise), Nomo (Portuguese 2nd Div)?

All of those were talented young players and all of those played for us. In this division. As we got relegated out of it for the first time ever.

Was you not calling for some experienced signings back then?

you make a fair point, even though i partly disagree with you.
Those days you mention, were when the Italian was running ( some say ruining) the club, and everything he touched turned to sh*t....he was that toxic.
The youngsters at that time were probably a few months off being ready for league football.
You have to remember, there were pros, but they refused to play, seeing as they wernt being paid
That was a totally different time to now, although, as i said, it is a fair point youre making.
Back in those dark days, there was no heart in the club, because of the toxcicity spread by the owner.
I truly believe those young men I have mentioned previously, ARE ready now for league football. Football is a game of opinions, and that is mine.
Not all older pros are 'no good', but some are. Coulson is totally out of his depth in league 2 at his age, however Turley is a useful player.....it depends on the player, but my main point is, if we played any talented youngster as soon as he's ready, we would get at least a season out of them, and with the correct contract in place, a fee when they left

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:56 am

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:22 am

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:27 am
Lots of sense in the post above.
Its always perturbed me that youngsters dont get picked ahead of seasoned players, simply because theyre young.
Talent wins every time for me, over older lower league players.
Its only by playing these talented youngsters, that they get experience.
I hope the other talented youngsters play a lot of games this coming season. Kyprianou, Ogie, Shabani, are all good enough to play league 2 football, and a few others are only a tad behind them

Being 100% truthful here, we have each of those players starting regularly next season and we're in 17th and 5 points off the trap door, you won't be screaming that we didn't replace experience with experience?

You can honestly say you won't moan that we didn't replace senior wage players with senior wage players? You won't say we took the cheap option?

No.. Because if we play these talented young players, we will be at the top end of the league. They are miles better than the old tired players
I would rather Ogie, over Coulson all day long
I would rather Kyprianou over any midfielder we have, all day long
I would rather Sotiriou, over Angell, or Wilkinson, all day long etc etc.
It won't happen because Ling prefers tired old pros, to young guns

No mention of Sam Ling or Myles Judd? Or Sam Sargeant?

Jesus Wept
4 pages of guff and no actual factual information about whether he has gone or not

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:52 am

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:06 am

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:53 pm

And he still managed to play 500+ games in his career and score goals at a reasonable level.

Yup but not at Orient.
At Orient his bones snapped alot.
Fair to him & us to have a change .
Dont forget he got 4 years wages without
Dazzling .
Only 2 goals in 40 games over 4 years
1999-2003 .

He only made 4 or 5 starts here the rest were named on the bench and yes he had bad luck with injury, but he ended up at Peterborough and scored 71 in 157 games. They could obviously see something in him we couldn't.

"Nothing like Aaron. He had to drop down to non league for a few years to kick start his career.
Ruel will be going to someone in the divisions above".

RedO gets it right here

We let him go because of our budget restrictions.
It was said at the time If he can get himself fit there is a player there .

Ruel is a different example ,
But is still unproven potential .

A team like Orient in L2 will always have players escaping . If you arent aware of that , its time to
Take your head out of the clouds.

The Big Shot wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:19 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:56 am

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:22 am

Being 100% truthful here, we have each of those players starting regularly next season and we're in 17th and 5 points off the trap door, you won't be screaming that we didn't replace experience with experience?

You can honestly say you won't moan that we didn't replace senior wage players with senior wage players? You won't say we took the cheap option?

No.. Because if we play these talented young players, we will be at the top end of the league. They are miles better than the old tired players
I would rather Ogie, over Coulson all day long
I would rather Kyprianou over any midfielder we have, all day long
I would rather Sotiriou, over Angell, or Wilkinson, all day long etc etc.
It won't happen because Ling prefers tired old pros, to young guns

No mention of Sam Ling or Myles Judd? Or Sam Sargeant?

Not great examples really...

Ling's son
Player who gets dropped as soon as said son is available
Cheapest backup GK we can find