Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Dunners wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 10:48 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 10:04 am

Dunners wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 9:31 am

You did. You quoted civilian casualties followed by questioning if Hamas were the targets. Which is fair enough. I've seen suggestive questions similar to this elsewhere, so was curious as to what possible implications are behind such a comment. I'm genuinely not trying to call anyone out here.

For instance, here are two possible interpretations:

1 - Israel IS targeting Hamas, but the civilian casualties are collateral (I'm not seeking to defend this, BTW)

2 - Israel is bombing civilian areas in the hope that Hamas militants get caught too.

Which of the above do you believe to be the case?

Why do you think the purpose of the bombing is still to do with seeking out Hamas?

What's the alternate?

For what it's worth, I think Israel may be walking into an Islamist trap, and will destabilise the region and western cities for years to come.

You know the alternate.

Interesting comment re a trap. There may be something in it given the political turmoil within Israel itself but I believe the constant turning of the screw on the Palestinians, settler land grabs, sniper shootings, Al Aqsa mosque issue not to mention the everyday deprivations imposed on Gaza meant something had to happen

A religious based terror organisation like Hamas couldn't stand by and ignore the encroachment onto the 3rd most Holy site in the Muslim world at Al Aqsa. That was the spark this time but it was always inevitable.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 10:48 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 10:04 am

Dunners wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 9:31 am

You did. You quoted civilian casualties followed by questioning if Hamas were the targets. Which is fair enough. I've seen suggestive questions similar to this elsewhere, so was curious as to what possible implications are behind such a comment. I'm genuinely not trying to call anyone out here.

For instance, here are two possible interpretations:

1 - Israel IS targeting Hamas, but the civilian casualties are collateral (I'm not seeking to defend this, BTW)

2 - Israel is bombing civilian areas in the hope that Hamas militants get caught too.

Which of the above do you believe to be the case?

Why do you think the purpose of the bombing is still to do with seeking out Hamas?

What's the alternate?

For what it's worth, I think Israel may be walking into an Islamist trap, and will destabilise the region and western cities for years to come.

When you say Islamist trap, who do you think might be behind it? Obviously not just Hamas. Is it too obvious to say Iran?

People are making this conflict more complicated than it really is.
In the late 1940's. European Jews ethnically cleaned Palestine of the 'natives', by forcing them out, or killing them, and then took over their land.
The Palestinians felt aggrieved, and ever since that, have been trying to redress the situation to right a wrong.
Just as if someone forced you out of your house/home, and took it over as their own, you wouldnt just walk away, you'd fight to get your house back, and right a wrong.
Thats it

Amongst other distasteful inaccuracies in that post, it seems fairly simplistic to ignore current geopolitical realities.

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 12:04 pm People are making this conflict more complicated than it really is.
In the late 1940's. European Jews ethnically cleaned Palestine of the 'natives', by forcing them out, or killing them, and then took over their land.
The Palestinians felt aggrieved, and ever since that, have been trying to redress the situation to right a wrong.
Just as if someone forced you out of your house/home, and took it over as their own, you wouldnt just walk away, you'd fight to get your house back, and right a wrong.
Thats it

You are making even more complicated as well. This is about last week not 1940!

Also your last point about fighting to get houses back. Occupied Cypriots are not murdering babies and Grandparents to do the same.

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 12:04 pm People are making this conflict more complicated than it really is.
In the late 1940's. European Jews ethnically cleaned Palestine of the 'natives', by forcing them out, or killing them, and then took over their land.
The Palestinians felt aggrieved, and ever since that, have been trying to redress the situation to right a wrong.
Just as if someone forced you out of your house/home, and took it over as their own, you wouldnt just walk away, you'd fight to get your house back, and right a wrong.
Thats it

What chance has anybody got, from either side, whilst this filth peddles its misinformation.

Which bit are you saying isnt true?

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 12:04 pm People are making this conflict more complicated than it really is.
In the late 1940's. European Jews ethnically cleaned Palestine of the 'natives', by forcing them out, or killing them, and then took over their land.
The Palestinians felt aggrieved, and ever since that, have been trying to redress the situation to right a wrong.
Just as if someone forced you out of your house/home, and took it over as their own, you wouldnt just walk away, you'd fight to get your house back, and right a wrong.
Thats it

if it was so simple, much of the world would be at war as so many countries, England especially, have taken over other countries. But no, over the years people have learned to live with each other with rivalry such as Scotland and England confined largely to sport (notwithstanding SNP).

The Arabs don't do pragmatism. They are always fighting and killing. Syria, Libya, Iraq, Yemen to name and some of the North Africa countries. Islam is a major driver of violence (Palestinian/Jewish rivalries predate Islam). Their apparently blinding devotion to Allah and the Prophet (and his descendants) seem to override rational thought and the ability to see and create a better life screws so many Arabs. Of course, being a militant leader is probably a decent job (notwithstanding likely assassination), so why would they give it up just to benefit a few million of their countrymen. Of course, some of the more extreme Israelis don't help much and play into the militants hands.

Ironically (in my view) the IRA support Palestine, they don't seem to recognise that the holocaust has far more in common with what the Irish have gone through over the centuries than how the Palestinians have been treated

Chicken Dhansak wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 12:42 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 12:04 pm People are making this conflict more complicated than it really is.
In the late 1940's. European Jews ethnically cleaned Palestine of the 'natives', by forcing them out, or killing them, and then took over their land.
The Palestinians felt aggrieved, and ever since that, have been trying to redress the situation to right a wrong.
Just as if someone forced you out of your house/home, and took it over as their own, you wouldnt just walk away, you'd fight to get your house back, and right a wrong.
Thats it

What chance has anybody got, from either side, whilst this filth peddles its misinformation.

Factually, everything i said is historically true.you Zionist ****

Think you need some time off.

Am just listening to an Israeli Lieutenant Colonel on Radio 4. Very articulate man and plausible.

He is saying quite clearly that Hamas are their target and he does not want civilians there and yet Hamas want them to remain to capitalise on bloodshed.

Hamas are hiding and are not concerned about the Palestinian civilians . The Israelis have guaranteed a safe route out of Gaza. The Israelis do not want these attacks to happen again and want to ‘change the game’ to endure this does not happen again. Hamas has caused this situation.

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:48 pm Am just listening to an Israeli Lieutenant Colonel on Radio 4. Very articulate man and plausible.

He is saying quite clearly that Hamas are their target and he does not want civilians there and yet Hamas want them to remain to capitalise on bloodshed.

Hamas are hiding and are not concerned about the Palestinian civilians . The Israelis have guaranteed a safe route out of Gaza. The Israelis do not want these attacks to happen again and want to ‘change the game’ to endure this does not happen again. Hamas has caused this situation.

Israel has caused the situation by stealing Palestine land. You can try to get round that, but in essence, thats why theres a conflict

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:52 pm

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:48 pm Am just listening to an Israeli Lieutenant Colonel on Radio 4. Very articulate man and plausible.

He is saying quite clearly that Hamas are their target and he does not want civilians there and yet Hamas want them to remain to capitalise on bloodshed.

Hamas are hiding and are not concerned about the Palestinian civilians . The Israelis have guaranteed a safe route out of Gaza. The Israelis do not want these attacks to happen again and want to ‘change the game’ to endure this does not happen again. Hamas has caused this situation.

Israel has caused the situation by stealing Palestine land. You can try to get round that, but in essence, thats why theres a conflict

Brush up on your history

all those protesters are nutters.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:28 am

Dunners wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 10:48 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 10:04 am

Why do you think the purpose of the bombing is still to do with seeking out Hamas?

What's the alternate?

For what it's worth, I think Israel may be walking into an Islamist trap, and will destabilise the region and western cities for years to come.

When you say Islamist trap, who do you think might be behind it? Obviously not just Hamas. Is it too obvious to say Iran?

If it's not Iran, they're certainly making hay with it.

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:11 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:52 pm

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:48 pm Am just listening to an Israeli Lieutenant Colonel on Radio 4. Very articulate man and plausible.

He is saying quite clearly that Hamas are their target and he does not want civilians there and yet Hamas want them to remain to capitalise on bloodshed.

Hamas are hiding and are not concerned about the Palestinian civilians . The Israelis have guaranteed a safe route out of Gaza. The Israelis do not want these attacks to happen again and want to ‘change the game’ to endure this does not happen again. Hamas has caused this situation.

Israel has caused the situation by stealing Palestine land. You can try to get round that, but in essence, thats why theres a conflict

Brush up on your history

No mate, you brush on your history. what ive said is accurate. You dont agree, but its still accurate.

Interesting viewpoint. If true, could suggest Iran testing the water for US appetite for middle east intervention, with the positioning of the carrier strike force being decisive.

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:39 pm

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:11 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:52 pm

Israel has caused the situation by stealing Palestine land. You can try to get round that, but in essence, thats why theres a conflict

Brush up on your history

No mate, you brush on your history. what ive said is accurate. You dont agree, but its still accurate.

Israel did not steal anything they occupied under United Nation Partition. What is going on in Israel now is about terrorists invading a Sovereign State and killing civilians , taking hostages in the process.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:44 pm Interesting viewpoint. If true, could suggest Iran testing the water for US appetite for middle east intervention, with the positioning of the carrier strike force being decisive.

Feeling a bit dense but just making sure I understand the implication - Iran were on board with the Hamas action, but then bailed late on (or else just didn't hold up their end of whatever agreed action was) and sat back to see what, if anything the US would do? And now, seeing the US show such strong support and position the strike force in the area, are they going to carry on backing off or were they looking to draw the US into something here?

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:56 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:44 pm Interesting viewpoint. If true, could suggest Iran testing the water for US appetite for middle east intervention, with the positioning of the carrier strike force being decisive.

Feeling a bit dense but just making sure I understand the implication - Iran were on board with the Hamas action, but then bailed late on (or else just didn't hold up their end of whatever agreed action was) and sat back to see what, if anything the US would do? And now, seeing the US show such strong support and position the strike force in the area, are they going to carry on backing off or were they looking to draw the US into something here?

Just theorising, but a possible win win for Iran.

Shift to multi-polar world = dormant regional powers awakening and testing their luck (i.e. Putin miscalculation of Western unity following invasion of Ukraine).

Now it's Irans turn. Get proxy militants in neighbouring countries to Israel to unite and kick off. If US turn blind eye = Israel wiped off the map and dead Jews. Happy Iran.

If US turns up, then venture fails. BUT, Israeli action will result in dead Palestinians which helps to fuel more Islamist tendency. Iran still happy.

It may cost Palestinian lives, but Islamists don't really care about them anyway. May lose Hamas, but still have Hezbollah, who are bigger and badder.

A win-win.

Interesting theory, ta.

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:11 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:52 pm

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:48 pm Am just listening to an Israeli Lieutenant Colonel on Radio 4. Very articulate man and plausible.

He is saying quite clearly that Hamas are their target and he does not want civilians there and yet Hamas want them to remain to capitalise on bloodshed.

Hamas are hiding and are not concerned about the Palestinian civilians . The Israelis have guaranteed a safe route out of Gaza. The Israelis do not want these attacks to happen again and want to ‘change the game’ to endure this does not happen again. Hamas has caused this situation.

Israel has caused the situation by stealing Palestine land. You can try to get round that, but in essence, thats why theres a conflict

Brush up on your history

LCL, Don't waste your time debating the situation with this Nazi maggot. This thing will only ever see things one way. It purports to spew it's filth against a State that only wants to live in peace, but will defend itself rigorously,, but in reality it is just another common, pig ignorant Jew hater.

Chicken Dhansak wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 6:17 pm

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:11 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:52 pm

Israel has caused the situation by stealing Palestine land. You can try to get round that, but in essence, thats why theres a conflict

Brush up on your history

LCL, Don't waste your time debating the situation with this Nazi maggot. This thing will only ever see things one way. It purports to spew it's filth against a State that only wants to live in peace, but will defend itself rigorously,, but in reality it is just another common, pig ignorant Jew hater.

Yes I kind of established that but I thought I’d just try and point out few things, sad people only have one viewpoint.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 3:16 pm

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:56 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:44 pm Interesting viewpoint. If true, could suggest Iran testing the water for US appetite for middle east intervention, with the positioning of the carrier strike force being decisive.

Feeling a bit dense but just making sure I understand the implication - Iran were on board with the Hamas action, but then bailed late on (or else just didn't hold up their end of whatever agreed action was) and sat back to see what, if anything the US would do? And now, seeing the US show such strong support and position the strike force in the area, are they going to carry on backing off or were they looking to draw the US into something here?

Just theorising, but a possible win win for Iran.

Shift to multi-polar world = dormant regional powers awakening and testing their luck (i.e. Putin miscalculation of Western unity following invasion of Ukraine).

Now it's Irans turn. Get proxy militants in neighbouring countries to Israel to unite and kick off. If US turn blind eye = Israel wiped off the map and dead Jews. Happy Iran.

If US turns up, then venture fails. BUT, Israeli action will result in dead Palestinians which helps to fuel more Islamist tendency. Iran still happy.

It may cost Palestinian lives, but Islamists don't really care about them anyway. May lose Hamas, but still have Hezbollah, who are bigger and badder.

A win-win.

The US sidelined £6bn that was on its way to Iran for oil monies withheld from years ago. Maybe that affected their thinking too. Given the material shortages in Iran and a growing working class opposition to the Mullahs.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 6:41 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 3:16 pm

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:56 pm

Feeling a bit dense but just making sure I understand the implication - Iran were on board with the Hamas action, but then bailed late on (or else just didn't hold up their end of whatever agreed action was) and sat back to see what, if anything the US would do? And now, seeing the US show such strong support and position the strike force in the area, are they going to carry on backing off or were they looking to draw the US into something here?

Just theorising, but a possible win win for Iran.

Shift to multi-polar world = dormant regional powers awakening and testing their luck (i.e. Putin miscalculation of Western unity following invasion of Ukraine).

Now it's Irans turn. Get proxy militants in neighbouring countries to Israel to unite and kick off. If US turn blind eye = Israel wiped off the map and dead Jews. Happy Iran.

If US turns up, then venture fails. BUT, Israeli action will result in dead Palestinians which helps to fuel more Islamist tendency. Iran still happy.

It may cost Palestinian lives, but Islamists don't really care about them anyway. May lose Hamas, but still have Hezbollah, who are bigger and badder.

A win-win.

The US sidelined £6bn that was on its way to Iran for oil monies withheld from years ago. Maybe that affected their thinking too. Given the material shortages in Iran and a growing working class opposition to the Mullahs.

I'm not for one minute making any claim to my theory being correct, by the way. But, if it was, then there's nothing like uniting the population against the Infidels to distract attention from domestic failings (the same is happening in China right now about US influence over Taiwan).