Independent Leyton Orient Forum

The battlefield isn't just Israel and Gaza. It's a much bigger fight, against those who divide humanity into the worthy and unworthy, who think war is the natural order of things, who desire an end to all dissent.

Those people sit in our governments, in our newsrooms, in our boardrooms. And if we let them, they'll make Palestinians of us all

How do you defeat Hamas without collateral damage? Hamas are telling people in Gaza not to leave only so they can use them as human shields.

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:49 am Sounds like a conspiracy theory.

I guess so, but over the years we've heard so much about Israel's legendary intelligence services that the idea that they had no clue about this massive and multi-facetted attack seems a bit incongruous to say the least.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:44 am Israel has dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza in 6 days.

The latest toll: 1537 killed, including 500 children. 6,612 wounded, including 1,644 children, according to the Health Ministry in Gaza.

Genocide.

....and the world stands by and lets this happen.
Actually the West, not only stands by, its actually encouraging Israel to do this
Countries are falling over each other to say they stand with Israel. a far right fascist government. It makes me feel sick

o-no wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:58 am

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:49 am Sounds like a conspiracy theory.

I guess so, but over the years we've heard so much about Israel's legendary intelligence services that the idea that they had no clue about this massive and multi-facetted attack seems a bit incongruous to say the least.

If you continue with this you’ll soon have Frankie and Lenny on your case…

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:55 am I am sure if there are such then they will be investigated and those responsible charged.

Oh come on, you have to be a WUM. Can't believe I ever thought you were being legit on this thread.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:01 am

Sad to see the First Minister supporting terrorism. He must resign.

Who was Loin Cloth Lenny before he was LCL?

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:50 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:24 am

Joe315 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:06 am Israel demands 1 Million Palestinians to evacute the north of Gaza. Who or what the hell do they think they are ? U.N calls it damaging. Is the World going to watch a Genocide ?

The consequences of tying in anti Zionism to anti semitism. Silence.

Its a strange thing but he worst antisemites are the Zionists. They have brought violence against their fellow Jews on to the streets of Israel.

They are not the worst antisemites ffs. This is obviously a ridiculous thing to say.

A Zionist is someone who believes in a homeland for the Jewish people. That is it. That includes millions of left wing or liberal minded Jewish and Israeli people who also support Palestinian statehood and Arab rights in Israel. Vast majority of Jewish people in the UK support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish homeland.

The lefts inability to talk about the subject without pushing potential allies into the nationalist camp is part of the reason successive Israeli governments have been able to conflate anti Israeli sentiment with antisemitism. You are doing the work for them.

What you're talking about is Israeli nationalism, same as any other
religious- nationalist project. I think that distinction matters, even more so in moments like this.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:02 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:55 am I am sure if there are such then they will be investigated and those responsible charged.

Oh come on, you have to be a WUM. Can't believe I ever thought you were being legit on this thread.

No i am serious , of course they will investigate. Rightly so too. No doubt in war sides overstep the mark. I cannot bear watching the events going on there.
It is a very awful situation. No innocent civilians should be affected but Israel must act to deter further terrorism by Hamas.

I reckon LCL is a slightly more sophisticated Tuffers. This Board is getting really boring with the multi-faceted user names & Wumming on what are serious topics. I come here less & less frequently & go away, more & more alarmed.

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:16 am No innocent civilians should be affected but

That 'but' undermines everything else you type. And if you genuinely, in good faith, think Israel will ever be investigated for war crimes (or the UK, or the US, or Ukraine, or anyone else on 'the right side') then please send me a private message as I have details of this amazing bridge that you're going to want to buy.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:38 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:16 am No innocent civilians should be affected but

That 'but' undermines everything else you type. And if you genuinely, in good faith, think Israel will ever be investigated for war crimes (or the UK, or the US, or Ukraine, or anyone else on 'the right side') then please send me a private message as I have details of this amazing bridge that you're going to want to buy.

(I don’t know what happened there) meant to read ‘but I have just heard on news radio that Hamas are telling civilians to stay where they are when Israelis are telling them to evacuate. We can only assume why the callous Hamas want them to stay put.

Now, about that Bridge……..em

No idea how half the country is expected to move south in 24 hours when the place is in the state it is.

Hamas know they can commit their attrocities while hiding behind civilians.

Hamas arent interested in peace or talks.

So again, how do you deal with them without civilians getting hurt?

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:03 pm Hamas know they can commit their attrocities while hiding behind civilians.

Hamas arent interested in peace or talks.

So again, how do you deal with them without civilians getting hurt?

I don't know but committing war crimes I suspect won't help this situation.

Admin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:12 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:03 pm Hamas know they can commit their attrocities while hiding behind civilians.

Hamas arent interested in peace or talks.

So again, how do you deal with them without civilians getting hurt?

I don't know but committing war crimes I suspect won't help this situation.

Again, what *will* help the situation?
I’m not being facetious here, but it’s striking that even in the abstract there’s no suggestions for a realistic action that could be taken now that *would* help.

This isn’t me advocating for what is likely to actually happen. It’s just that I’m not seeing any suggestions that actually engage with the reality of the situation as it currently is, and what responses would actually make sense.

Like I mean, from first principles - and totally accepting that yep, history did not start last Saturday, but that we are where we are - what *is* the (or even *a*) route from last Saturday to a better situation?

CEB wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:21 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:12 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:03 pm Hamas know they can commit their attrocities while hiding behind civilians.

Hamas arent interested in peace or talks.

So again, how do you deal with them without civilians getting hurt?

I don't know but committing war crimes I suspect won't help this situation.

Again, what *will* help the situation?
I’m not being facetious here, but it’s striking that even in the abstract there’s no suggestions for a realistic action that could be taken now that *would* help.

This isn’t me advocating for what is likely to actually happen. It’s just that I’m not seeing any suggestions that actually engage with the reality of the situation as it currently is, and what responses would actually make sense.

The fact that none on here has a clear idea of what the Israeli govt should do is not important imo. None of us has enough in depth information on the tactical situation they're facing, nor are we military strategists. However, it's not unreasonable to moot that simply bombing the crap out of the area when you absolutely know that you're going to be killing civilians isn't the way forward - unless of course you don't give a crap about said civilians.

I guess thats why they're preparing a ground assault. Destroy Hamas and retrieve hostages will be the main objectives, I think.

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:03 pm Hamas know they can commit their attrocities while hiding behind civilians.

Hamas arent interested in peace or talks.

So again, how do you deal with them without civilians getting hurt?

You could start from the premise that you will not punish civilians for the actions of Hamas and not simply view civilian deaths as collateral damage but in a genocidal enterprise that isn't possible.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:48 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:03 pm Hamas know they can commit their attrocities while hiding behind civilians.

Hamas arent interested in peace or talks.

So again, how do you deal with them without civilians getting hurt?

You could start from the premise that you will not punish civilians for the actions of Hamas and not simply view civilian deaths as collateral damage but in a genocidal enterprise that isn't possible.

Start from that premise and then do…. What?

CEB wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:24 pm Like I mean, from first principles - and totally accepting that yep, history did not start last Saturday, but that we are where we are - what *is* the (or even *a*) route from last Saturday to a better situation?

An immediate ceasefire and negotiations to release the hostages in exchange for jailed Palestinians brokered by a trusted party. Enough innocent women and children have died already.

To include discussions about rebuilding Gaza and mutual security. Ending with the creation of a state that protects the rights of all it citizens and ending with full socialism. It may take some time.

I was just typing something about a cease-fire and negotiations but Max is there already.

Reuters reported there were attempts at dialogue using Qatar and Turkey as intermediaries but Israel subsequently denied this.