Independent Leyton Orient Forum

There is an interesting , peer reviewed report out now from Italy showing Covid to have been present in every Italian region as early as September 2019.
Antibodies in blood taken in lung cancer tests showed antibodies in over 10% of participants for Covid suggesting infection in August 2019.

faldO wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:57 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:59 pm Maybe so, but why not just get a vaccine that has less risk of giving you a clot?

Which one?

If this report is accurate - https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-04-15-ri ... 9-vaccines - there is not much difference in the blood clot risk between the AZ and the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer / Moderna). And the J&J vaccine is currently being investigated.

Plus for the current age groups being vaccinated I am not aware that you get a choice in the UK, except to refuse. Only the under 30s have been told they can take an alternative.

Unfortunately just one small issue.

Aa at 1st April 472 deaths from AZ vaccine and 236 from Pfizer. With 132,000 reports of complications and reactions. From the ONS.

More people have died from flu than covid in the last 6-7 weeks.

Still's Carenae wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:23 pm
Aa at 1st April 472 deaths from AZ vaccine and 236 from Pfizer. With 132,000 reports of complications and reactions. From the ONS.

Can you provide a link to that ONS data please?

Highly unlikely IMO that over 700 people have died as a direct result of a vaccination as you claim, except perhaps if the ONS are including people who have died of covid who have also been vaccinated.

But the link you provide should clear it up one way or the other.

Still's Carenae wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:23 pm

faldO wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:57 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:59 pm

More people have died from flu than covid in the last 6-7 weeks.

Where ?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... -risk-high

New concerns as Indian Covid variant clusters found across England

https://vernoncoleman.org/articles/how- ... es-killing

This is the only link that I can make work in relation to figures to 1st May.

The links for AstraZenica and Pfizer are in the exposed section which links to the ONS site.

The cumulative figures are on the last page of each report.

One thing that has really started to come out is that the trials for these vaccines will not be completed until 2023 and are therefore only classed as experimental drugs. Insurers will not pay out for anything where the vaccine is suspected of causing the problem, until final approval which is 3 years away. I have seen several sources stating this.

Is Vernon Coleman still going? I remember back when he was peddling his shock agony uncle shtick in The People.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 8:46 am Is Vernon Coleman still going? I remember back when he was peddling his shock agony uncle shtick in The People.

He is. I don't listen to him but the link makes finding ons statistics much easier to find than on the actual site.

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:37 pm

Still's Carenae wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:23 pm

faldO wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:57 am

More people have died from flu than covid in the last 6-7 weeks.

Where ?

UK

faldO wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:36 pm

Still's Carenae wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:23 pm
Aa at 1st April 472 deaths from AZ vaccine and 236 from Pfizer. With 132,000 reports of complications and reactions. From the ONS.

Can you provide a link to that ONS data please?

Highly unlikely IMO that over 700 people have died as a direct result of a vaccination as you claim, except perhaps if the ONS are including people who have died of covid who have also been vaccinated.

But the link you provide should clear it up one way or the other.

Attachment gives access to reports in my recent post (I was unable to give a direct link). AZ report is 98 pages long, Pfizer not much shorter. Bad bedtime reading.

Still's Carenae wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 10:17 am

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:37 pm

Still's Carenae wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:23 pm


More people have died from flu than covid in the last 6-7 weeks.

Where ?

UK

Have you a link that shows that please .

Mrs NES & I had our second jabs this morning.
I got quite emotional while doing the 15-min post jab sit down. I thank all involved from the scientists who developed the vaccine to the volunteers at the Vax Centre. Good on you all.

Still's Carenae wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 10:22 am

faldO wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:36 pm

Still's Carenae wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:23 pm
Aa at 1st April 472 deaths from AZ vaccine and 236 from Pfizer. With 132,000 reports of complications and reactions. From the ONS.

Can you provide a link to that ONS data please?

Highly unlikely IMO that over 700 people have died as a direct result of a vaccination as you claim, except perhaps if the ONS are including people who have died of covid who have also been vaccinated.

But the link you provide should clear it up one way or the other.

Attachment gives access to reports in my recent post (I was unable to give a direct link). AZ report is 98 pages long, Pfizer not much shorter. Bad bedtime reading.

Thanks for the link.

The ONS data you refer to is just a dump of the databases that are used to track any side effects for the various vaccines, standard practice for any vaccine. It's not a cause and effect analysis. I note one poor soul contracted syphillis after a dose of the Pfizer vaccine.

Even if you wanted to directly attribute every single death from that data to the vaccines - the 700 death numbers you mention - it's clear that the vaccine program in the UK has prevented 1000s of deaths and hospitalizations and therefore for me the benefits outweigh the risks.

faldO wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 2:33 pm

Still's Carenae wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 10:22 am

faldO wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:36 pm

Can you provide a link to that ONS data please?

Highly unlikely IMO that over 700 people have died as a direct result of a vaccination as you claim, except perhaps if the ONS are including people who have died of covid who have also been vaccinated.

But the link you provide should clear it up one way or the other.

Attachment gives access to reports in my recent post (I was unable to give a direct link). AZ report is 98 pages long, Pfizer not much shorter. Bad bedtime reading.

Thanks for the link.

The ONS data you refer to is just a dump of the databases that are used to track any side effects for the various vaccines, standard practice for any vaccine. It's not a cause and effect analysis. I note one poor soul contracted syphillis after a dose of the Pfizer vaccine.

Even if you wanted to directly attribute every single death from that data to the vaccines - the 700 death numbers you mention - it's clear that the vaccine program in the UK has prevented 1000s of deaths and hospitalizations and therefore for me the benefits outweigh the risks.

All I can say that in practice I have seen more patients for reactions to the covid vaccines than anything else.The only drug that has come close is statins and that over a long period of time. This is a common view amongst my colleagues. Unfortunately FaldO the reactions suggest that these figures which you call a dump look potentially comparable to what is happening in practice. Vaccine figures have as far as I am aware never been close to these figures.

My thought on the emergency vaccination program are that people who are vulnerable should be heavily encouraged. those over 60 should be encouraged. Anybody younger should not be exposed to the vaccines until the trials are completed, which is expected in 2023. this is in keepng with what you are saying.

Deaths could very easily been lowered by having fever hospitals. Hospitals have not had as many number of free beds for years. At its height we only reached 95% full capacity (and this does not include the Nightingale hospitals) and by mid March down to 82% which is a normal June figure. But the consequences of lack of treatment for other conditions will be felt for many years, as I have sadly seen.

Also note that the ONS has stated that numbers of deaths have been overstated by a quarter, this has been reported in national newspapers. We can assume these figures are conservative. It has also been advised by PHE that at least 20% of people dying of covid contracted it in hospital, again in national newspapers.

Mental health is going to be such a major issue going forward, I am not sure how the services are going to cope.

Time will tell where we really stand.

I don't disagree with any of that.

It's about choices - and the world appears to have chosen mass vaccination as the way out in a "one size fits all" approach. Perhaps with hindsight a different strategy would have worked (targeted shielding, the fever hospitals you suggest) but those who proposed such things were largely dismissed as "cranks" (eg the GBD) in the media and by politicians and don't appear to have ever been taken seriously, despite being eminent in their professions.

As you say, time will tell, and there are plenty of timebombs slowly ticking away.

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the pub...

Does worry me that infections still hovering around 2k daily

SAGE are holding an urgent meeting tomorrow to review worrying increases of Infoan variant in UK.

Still, so long as an increase in cases doesn't result in increase in serious illness and death, then that means vaccine rollout is working and we can drink pints, right?

Believe the vaccines are effective against indian variant. Still plenty of people who have not yet been offered a vaccine though. Only just started under 40s in my area.

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 9:02 pm Does worry me that infections still hovering around 2k daily

The real positive is the huge reduction in the number of ICU beds used for COVID victims. That’s fallen to below 140 from a worst case of over 6000. Long may this be the trend.

The important numbers are deaths and hospital admissions, if those are low infections should not matter

What is not being said, except discretely, is that these spikes are occurring in areas with high Asian population. Where people have been reluctant to get vaccinated. Lots of people have come back from India in rush. Prevalent amongst youngsters. God knows how they managed to justify their trips to India while we were in lockdown. Government was far too slow to restrict entry from India.

Theres a loophole for everything in this country.

Clive Evans wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 12:21 pm What is not being said, except discretely, is that these spikes are occurring in areas with high Asian population. Where people have been reluctant to get vaccinated. Lots of people have come back from India in rush. Prevalent amongst youngsters. God knows how they managed to justify their trips to India while we were in lockdown. Government was far too slow to restrict entry from India.

See my posts from weeks ago on this. It was obvious and flights from India should have been stopped weeks ago. All of the freedoms we have earned look like being taken back from us.
Other boarders were too keen on pulling my post apart rather than taking note of my concerns at the time.