Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:07 pm**

I wish they could sort peace talks quickly but the situation is being planned and prepared as we speak. There is nothing we can effectively do except go protest outside the Israeli Embassy which will have no effect. I have seen it all before over the years. There will be some form of peace talks but there will be no lasting solution unless territory is surrendered.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:12 pm**

(At PJ, sorry, didn’t quote and now we’re on a new page so it’s unclear) By saying you don’t know the precise answer, you’re kind of avoiding that you don’t seem (on the basis of what you’ve posted so far) to have a general answer as to what would be a realistic, understandable and legitimate response.

I’m not having a pop here - I’m just saying that for a pressing issue where a lot of people are condemning those who treat it as black and white, there’s not much in the way of a suggestion for what a response looks like that actually takes in the shades of grey.

What I mean is, surely if you post “no there’s no other way other than killing civilians, innocent women and children”, the sarcasm that’s implicit in that sentence suggests there’s obviously another way that everyone is missing. Is there one?

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:19 pm**

Would Israel target civilians on purpose? Gaza sounds like a small crowded area so collateral damage must be impossible to avoid. I've heard people talk about weapons intentionally being stored in civilian areas, no idea if that is true or not.

Hopefully a humanitarian cooridor will be opened and people can use it.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:34 pm**

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:12 pm (At PJ, sorry, didn’t quote and now we’re on a new page so it’s unclear) By saying you don’t know the precise answer, you’re kind of avoiding that you don’t seem (on the basis of what you’ve posted so far) to have a general answer as to what would be a realistic, understandable and legitimate response.

I’m not having a pop here - I’m just saying that for a pressing issue where a lot of people are condemning those who treat it as black and white, there’s not much in the way of a suggestion for what a response looks like that actually takes in the shades of grey.

What I mean is, surely if you post “no there’s no other way other than killing civilians, innocent women and children”, the sarcasm that’s implicit in that sentence suggests there’s obviously another way that everyone is missing. Is there one?

I dunno, I take your point but feel a bit like this is teetering close to "you can't criticise war crimes unless you have a specific operational alternative to put forward". Maybe that's unfair and apologies if so, I appreciate you weren't having a go.

As Daniel Levy pointed on BBC News last night, flattening Gaza isn't going to defeat Hamas. They will still be there and will probably feel more justified in carrying out any future atrocities. If there isn't a readily available "better solution" that I can pinpoint then I'll take criticism for that if needs be, but I still feel that the collective punishment of 2 million people doesn't necessarily have to be the fallback option.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:40 pm**

“this is teetering close to "you can't criticise war crimes unless you have a specific operational alternative to put forward".”

That’s not what I’m trying to say - war crimes and the potential for war crimes absolutely needs calling out and condemning without equivocation. But some of your point was more substantively pacifist in nature, as if recognising any military retaliation as legitimate is an extreme position that avoids an obvious, moderate position.
I’m not trying a gotcha here or anything - it’s just that if it’s not possible to even discuss or assert what a legitimate and understandable response might look like, then it suggests that there isn’t one, and that any response other than “no military response” will be condemned as unreasonable

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:54 pm**

I'm probably a pacifist, yes, but do recognise that military responses are required in certain situations.

I don't want to start scrabbling around in the dark here, so maybe it's time to shut up for a bit, but perhaps, given the vast technological resources at the IDF's disposal, their response could be more targeted. I believe they have the capability to take more forensic action other than laying siege to the whole region or carrying out indiscriminate aerial bombing that will have clear and obvious civilian impact. But as I said, to come up with a specific proposal for what is 'reasonable' needs a fair bit more thought and research and, truth be told, I don't have the time, the whole thing is grossly depressing all round and therefore maybe I will bow out for a bit.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:56 pm**

Any response to a terrorist act or other provocative act is usually meant to be “proportionate” - whatever that really means. It’s meant, at a best guess, to stop the injured party from having a free hand to mete out a totally unacceptable, over the top, potentially illegal (or some such description) response.
It’s telling that Biden, when he expressed his rightful disgust at the Hamas attack, left out the usual “proportionate response” proviso when he talked about Israel’s right to respond. It almost gives Israel carte Blanche to go into Gaza and take a very bloody revenge.
I hope that doesn’t come to pass.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:09 pm**

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:56 pm Any response to a terrorist act or other provocative act is usually meant to be “proportionate” - whatever that really means. It’s meant, at a best guess, to stop the injured party from having a free hand to mete out a totally unacceptable, over the top, potentially illegal (or some such description) response.
It’s telling that Biden, when he expressed his rightful disgust at the Hamas attack, left out the usual “proportionate response” proviso when he talked about Israel’s right to respond. It almost gives Israel carte Blanche to go into Gaza and take a very bloody revenge.
I hope that doesn’t come to pass.

Tell me Bonio, what would your response be if a group of people murdered and beheaded your wife and children. I would like to know the answer to this without you putting up a glib reply.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:14 pm**

^ CD just straight up pretending there’s no such thing as rule of law or society, I see.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:18 pm**

Chicken Dhansak wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:09 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:56 pm Any response to a terrorist act or other provocative act is usually meant to be “proportionate” - whatever that really means. It’s meant, at a best guess, to stop the injured party from having a free hand to mete out a totally unacceptable, over the top, potentially illegal (or some such description) response.
It’s telling that Biden, when he expressed his rightful disgust at the Hamas attack, left out the usual “proportionate response” proviso when he talked about Israel’s right to respond. It almost gives Israel carte Blanche to go into Gaza and take a very bloody revenge.
I hope that doesn’t come to pass.
Tell me Bonio, what would your response be if a group of people murdered and beheaded your wife and children. I would like to know the answer to this without you putting up a glib reply.

My personal response would be predictable. Then again I’m not a Government ruled by International and Internal laws.
So, my response would be irrelevant. Israel has a responsibility to react in accordance with Law and one would hope, human decency.

You also need to look at the account of Israeli Ministers being shouted at by survivors of the attack in Hospital. They are blaming the attack on the Government - not because of the lack of warning or protection - but because they blame the Israeli government’s policies for causing this violence. I think their views trump mine and yours don’t you think.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:23 pm**

Chicken Dhansak wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:09 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:56 pm Any response to a terrorist act or other provocative act is usually meant to be “proportionate” - whatever that really means. It’s meant, at a best guess, to stop the injured party from having a free hand to mete out a totally unacceptable, over the top, potentially illegal (or some such description) response.
It’s telling that Biden, when he expressed his rightful disgust at the Hamas attack, left out the usual “proportionate response” proviso when he talked about Israel’s right to respond. It almost gives Israel carte Blanche to go into Gaza and take a very bloody revenge.
I hope that doesn’t come to pass.
Tell me Bonio, what would your response be if a group of people murdered and beheaded your wife and children. I would like to know the answer to this without you putting up a glib reply.

This is the same kind of dumb reductive thinking that pushes people towards Hamas and feeds the circle of violence. Tell me CD, what would your response be if a nation bombed your home, killed your family and kept you on poverty rations?

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:27 pm**

So as usual, you have no specific answer. As usual you just shove it down the line.
And what does "predictable" mean, ambiguous in the extreme.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:39 pm**

Chicken Dhansak wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:27 pm So as usual, you have no specific answer. As usual you just shove it down the line.
And what does "predictable" mean, ambiguous in the extreme.

People aren’t analogous to nations. It’s odd that this needs stating.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:44 pm**

Chicken Dhansak wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:27 pm So as usual, you have no specific answer. As usual you just shove it down the line.
And what does "predictable" mean, ambiguous in the extreme.

Look, I don’t know you but I assume you’re Jewish? I, and others on here, have been called a “Jew hater” and anti-Semite. This is untrue and totally unacceptable.
I don’t hate Jews. I do despise the Israeli State - the increasingly right wing fascism they inflict on the Region.
If you read my post you’d see that survivors of the massacre also blame the Israeli government. Read these articles and have a good think. If survivors who witnessed these atrocities blame the Israeli Government what gives you the right to argue against their view?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 28272.html#

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:57 pm**

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:23 pm
Chicken Dhansak wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:09 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:56 pm Any response to a terrorist act or other provocative act is usually meant to be “proportionate” - whatever that really means. It’s meant, at a best guess, to stop the injured party from having a free hand to mete out a totally unacceptable, over the top, potentially illegal (or some such description) response.
It’s telling that Biden, when he expressed his rightful disgust at the Hamas attack, left out the usual “proportionate response” proviso when he talked about Israel’s right to respond. It almost gives Israel carte Blanche to go into Gaza and take a very bloody revenge.
I hope that doesn’t come to pass.
Tell me Bonio, what would your response be if a group of people murdered and beheaded your wife and children. I would like to know the answer to this without you putting up a glib reply.
This is the same kind of dumb reductive thinking that pushes people towards Hamas and feeds the circle of violence. Tell me CD, what would your response be if a nation bombed your home, killed your family and kept you on poverty rations?

Have you got a link to an example of this? Does Israel ever give a justification?

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:02 pm**

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:22 am
Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:01 am
ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:19 pm This will have to end at some time. How South Africa ended its apartheid, would be a good model for how Israel colud end hers.
Government of Jews and Palestinians together, everyone equal under the constitution.
Its a good idea right?
Arab parties were in government in Israel until 10 months ago

Hamas haven’t faced reelection for over 17 years
Despite what is said to the contrary , in peace times The Palestinians live side by side with Israelis interact normally and do business together. It is the terrorists like Hamas that whip up the tension. Most Palestinians enjoy and want peace as of course do the Israelis. There are many Israeli and Palestinian relationships and marriages. The sooner there is a ceasefire and peace talks the better without further bloodshed.

I'm sorry but under no circumstances do Palestinians live peacefully next to Israel, while Israel controls electricity water food medicine etc . They live under Israels control.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:16 pm**

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:57 pm
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:23 pm
Chicken Dhansak wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:09 pm

Tell me Bonio, what would your response be if a group of people murdered and beheaded your wife and children. I would like to know the answer to this without you putting up a glib reply.
This is the same kind of dumb reductive thinking that pushes people towards Hamas and feeds the circle of violence. Tell me CD, what would your response be if a nation bombed your home, killed your family and kept you on poverty rations?
Have you got a link to an example of this? Does Israel ever give a justification?

List of United Nations Resolutions concerning Israel, If you copy those words into Google it will give you the link to the Wikepedia page, scroll down to after 1967. You'll find what you seek but not Israeli justification. Just U.N Breeches.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:26 pm**

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:55 am
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:05 am No, you're right, there's simply no other option than to kill more women and children and the elderly in retaliation. Them's the breaks.
What should they have done after having 1000 citizens murdered? Peace talks are the long term solution but I dont think you're being realistic.

I'm guessing but is the answer: Not instigate genocide and seek an alternative proportionate response?

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:45 pm**

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:02 pm
Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:22 am
Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:01 am

Arab parties were in government in Israel until 10 months ago

Hamas haven’t faced reelection for over 17 years
Despite what is said to the contrary , in peace times The Palestinians live side by side with Israelis interact normally and do business together. It is the terrorists like Hamas that whip up the tension. Most Palestinians enjoy and want peace as of course do the Israelis. There are many Israeli and Palestinian relationships and marriages. The sooner there is a ceasefire and peace talks the better without further bloodshed.
I'm sorry but under no circumstances do Palestinians live peacefully next to Israel, while Israel controls electricity water food medicine etc . They live under Israels control.

In peaceful times they generally do.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:46 pm**

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:26 pm
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:55 am
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:05 am No, you're right, there's simply no other option than to kill more women and children and the elderly in retaliation. Them's the breaks.
What should they have done after having 1000 citizens murdered? Peace talks are the long term solution but I dont think you're being realistic.
I'm guessing but is the answer: Not instigate genocide and seek an alternative proportionate response?

If they sought the alternative proportionate response by asking you, what would you recommend?

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:51 pm**

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:45 pm
Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:02 pm
Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:22 am

Despite what is said to the contrary , in peace times The Palestinians live side by side with Israelis interact normally and do business together. It is the terrorists like Hamas that whip up the tension. Most Palestinians enjoy and want peace as of course do the Israelis. There are many Israeli and Palestinian relationships and marriages. The sooner there is a ceasefire and peace talks the better without further bloodshed.
I'm sorry but under no circumstances do Palestinians live peacefully next to Israel, while Israel controls electricity water food medicine etc . They live under Israels control.
In peaceful times they generally do.

Was that pre 1918 under the rule of the Ottoman Empire ?

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:53 pm**

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:46 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:26 pm
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:55 am

What should they have done after having 1000 citizens murdered? Peace talks are the long term solution but I dont think you're being realistic.
I'm guessing but is the answer: Not instigate genocide and seek an alternative proportionate response?

If they sought the alternative proportionate response by asking you, what would you recommend?

Exodus 21:23-27 An Eye for an Eye ?

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:02 pm**

A measured and interesting piece. Worth a read.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:05 pm**

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:46 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:26 pm
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:55 am

What should they have done after having 1000 citizens murdered? Peace talks are the long term solution but I dont think you're being realistic.
I'm guessing but is the answer: Not instigate genocide and seek an alternative proportionate response?

If they sought the alternative proportionate response by asking you, what would you recommend?

I'm thinking of rounding them up into a resource thin open prison and when they peacefully protest have snipers shoot them in the ankles and bomb them from time to time to quell their ardour.

Posted: **Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:18 pm**

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:51 pm
Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:45 pm
Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:02 pm

I'm sorry but under no circumstances do Palestinians live peacefully next to Israel, while Israel controls electricity water food medicine etc . They live under Israels control.
In peaceful times they generally do.
Was that pre 1918 under the rule of the Ottoman Empire ?

I have family and friends living there now, there has been more peaceful times in recent years. Tensions and flare ups but people have got on. There is an Orchestra based in Spain called the West East Divan whose President is Daniel Barenboim, made up of young people from all over the Middle East. They play music together they do not fight each other and the same thing happened in Israel.

Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel

Re: Israel