Independent Leyton Orient Forum

CEB wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:42 pm

StillSpike wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:35 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:17 pm Imagine dismissing out of hand the idea that this is misogyny

It certainly seems very wrong. At the risk of displaying my own ignorance - please can you explain (to an oldish and not terribly with it) person, how this is misogyny.

Because he claims to be a woman. Literally a woman. And is part of an activism that demonises women who recognise that he is male

So is it a bit like blackface?

CEB wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:43 pm And yes, it’s a man with a penis. Though he claims to be a woman. He certainly seems to be experiencing distress at the mismatch between his sex and his gender identity, right?

I’m a daft old, out of touch, fuddy duddy but I don’t understand how you can be a woman and have a penis?

I have no issue with people having penises and boobs simultaneously, by the way, I’m pretty much one myself these days.

You can’t be a woman and have a penis. The whole issue is about redefining “woman” to mean “person who says they are a woman”, including males. The only time this activism thinks that hormones and surgery are necessary to live one’s best life - and to legally be regarded as literally a member of the opposite sex - is when they’re trying to say that effeminate young boys need puberty blockers and that teenage lesbians need their tits cut off

The interesting thing is that there are people on this forum that won’t be prepared to say “that person is male, you can tell by his penis”. The more vocal activists would actually say that because the penis belongs to someone who is a woman, it’s therefore a female penis.

CEB wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:48 pm The interesting thing is that there are people on this forum that won’t be prepared to say “that person is male, you can tell by his penis”. The more vocal activists would actually say that because the penis belongs to someone who is a woman, it’s therefore a female penis.

CEB, I'm not actually referring to the particular quote above and this is the first time I have contributed anything to this thread. Its obvious from this thread and other interactions on here and other social media that you are fully engaged with the trands debate. In other matters and topics, not this one, the views you express are normally similar to my own and it has surprised me that you have total commitment in your particular view on this subject. The debate has exploded over the last few years and an ongoing learning curve, with many having views that evolve and change.
I don't know why I feel I need to say this, but your view is very entrenched and seems to have no chance whatsoever of any movement. Maybe this particular forum isn't the best for this debate as your standard of debate is always very very good and its surprising that you choose to debate this on here where the chance to enhance your own understanding is very limited.

My view on this subject has evolved and changed. I talk about it because very few understand it. I understand it because I became horrified by what is happening while people with a casual understanding assume that it’s analogous to gay rights.
My views would be subject to change if I hear good arguments - in the absence of any (after looking) I’m convinced - and currently being proved right - that there are several scandals happening.

When this topic is discussed, I personally think that having people who understand it well contributing is a good thing - I’d recommend reading the first few pages of the trans thread itself to see how there’s a casual brushing away of initial questions raised about some of this, by people who turned out not to have anything to say.

I agree that I’m a bit focused on it, and get it’s not a subject people want to discuss. I wouldn’t personally have brought up the current talking point of the singer thing, because it’s a “and now THIS” type story - it highlights what I already have said, it’s nothing new. But what I really feel strongly about is the medicalisation of children and the homophobic, safeguarding nightmare that is mermaids.

My values are that I call out misogyny & sexism, and my background is in working with children. It’s very easy for me to call out this stuff when it’s criticising the right wing, criticising obviously regressive ideas. But I’ve honestly been amazed and disappointed by how people I broadly agree with will not actually look closely enough to decide what they think about this. It’s not actually complicated.

Also - and I’m not having a dig here. But you’re careful to say you’re not referring to my quote. And that’s kind of what’s frustrating - my quote *is* the crux of the trans debate. But nobody can actually tell me why my refusal to believe that a man with a penis is a woman is taboo among progressives. So I don’t tiptoe around it, I maintain that men redefining what a woman is, is an act of misogyny. And that when those same men who say “I can have a willy and be a woman” say “children need to have puberty blockers to stop them developing the wrong body” I call out the incoherence and the implications of granting children the capacity to alter their bodies irreversibly.

You actually seem like the most intellectually curious about, if not the issue, my motivation for posting about it. I do wonder why you think that having a well developed view should mean I sit out the threads about it

CEB wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 10:30 pm Also - and I’m not having a dig here. But you’re careful to say you’re not referring to my quote. And that’s kind of what’s frustrating - my quote *is* the crux of the trans debate. But nobody can actually tell me why my refusal to believe that a man with a penis is a woman is taboo among progressives. So I don’t tiptoe around it, I maintain that men redefining what a woman is, is an act of misogyny. And that when those same men who say “I can have a willy and be a woman” say “children need to have puberty blockers to stop them developing the wrong body” I call out the incoherence and the implications of granting children the capacity to alter their bodies irreversibly.

You actually seem like the most intellectually curious about, if not the issue, my motivation for posting about it. I do wonder why you think that having a well developed view should mean I sit out the threads about it

Is there such a thing as gender dysphoria?

Can you answer yes or no please. Nobody, least of all this MB, needs a 1,500 word essay on it.

Yes. Obviously. I know people who live with it.

The Great British Bake Off scraps national-themed weeks after criticism

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-66689042

After Mexican week, there were accusations of casual racism and stereotypes because the hosts wore sombreros, used maracas and spoke in Spanish accents.

What's woke about this? There's no need to stop doing it, just don't do it in a sh*t way, which they did last time. Pretty straightforward to get people to bake something to a theme without being an egg about it.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:17 pm What's woke about this? There's no need to stop doing it, just don't do it in a sh*t way, which they did last time.

But they have stopped doing it. Executive producer Kieran Smith told the Guardian: "We're not doing any national themes this year." C4, unsurprisingly, have bowed down to pressure from a few people who complained about racism where none was intended or present.

Bake off is a light entertainment programme, hosted by a couple of comedians, with a big slice of self-deprecation in it. Who honestly would have been offended by people wearing sombreros and shaking maracas on a mexican-themed episode, let alone taken it to be racist? If it was done in a "sh*t way", as you say, then so what, just hit the off-button.

As Prue said, "The thing about Bake Off is that it absolutely represents inclusivity and diversity and tolerance and togetherness. So the idea that we set out to insult anybody is ridiculous."

They might not have set out to, but they might have done. Again, what's woke about that? They don't need to be a martyr, just accept something was perhaps ill-judged (and unfunny) and do better.

faldO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:40 pmWho honestly would have been offended by people wearing sombreros and shaking maracas on a mexican-themed episode?"

Maybe Mexicans.

I wonder how many Mexicans complained or is it non Mexicans being offended on their behalf

Max Fowler wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:04 pm

faldO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:40 pmWho honestly would have been offended by people wearing sombreros and shaking maracas on a mexican-themed episode?"

Maybe Mexicans.

Where is the offensive in wearing a sombrero?

I wonder how many people actually asked for the segment to be discontinued. Probably none.

faldO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:40 pm
As Prue said, "The thing about Bake Off is that it absolutely represents inclusivity and diversity and tolerance and togetherness. So the idea that we set out to insult anybody is ridiculous."

Staggered that an 80 year old toff doesn't get it.

Also, will anyone actually be upset that there won’t be a nation-themed episode in the next series? It’s not like they’ve pulled the programme or sacked anyone. I doubt anyone would even have noticed of it weren’t for the clickbait headlines

Story of O wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:06 pm

Max Fowler wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:04 pm

faldO wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:40 pmWho honestly would have been offended by people wearing sombreros and shaking maracas on a mexican-themed episode?"

Maybe Mexicans.

Where is the offensive in wearing a sombrero?

Or doing a Span-eesh akk-sent, holmes? Is all gooood.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:07 pm I wonder how many people actually asked for the segment to be discontinued. Probably none.

That is EXACTLY why to cancel it is woke.

I don't really think that's what woke means but if it gives you something to get mad about, you do you.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:20 pm I don't really think that's what woke means but if it gives you something to get mad about, you do you.

You do you as well.

Story of O wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:05 pm I wonder how many Mexicans complained or is it non Mexicans being offended on their behalf

To be fair, they might have been offended but not complained due to laziness

CEB wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:34 pm

Story of O wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:05 pm I wonder how many Mexicans complained or is it non Mexicans being offended on their behalf

To be fair, they might have been offended but not complained due to laziness

Probably can't construct a letter of complaint, either.