Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:53 pm "... we do not agree with the insensitive and transphobic statement she made."

What did she say?

Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:13 pm To be honest I don't think there is anything either of us could say that is going to change the others mind. Although you might think this is a must dash excuse I'm down with covid at the moment which gives me rare time to post on here but even less brain power than usual to construct an argument, especially across two threads.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:10 pm For what it's worth, think there's a chance that the right might score a massive own goal with this subject, at least in the UK. The Tory leadership campaign is fixating on what is a very fringe issue in a way that Labour have never done, at a time where basic questions around people having enough money to live aren't being answered. The right accuse the left of being obsessed with identity issues, and yet I'd say the subject of trans identity much more of a preoccupation amongst the mainstream right than it is the mainstream left (once you get offline and off the Twitter sphere).

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:22 pm

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:10 pm For what it's worth, think there's a chance that the right might score a massive own goal with this subject, at least in the UK. The Tory leadership campaign is fixating on what is a very fringe issue in a way that Labour have never done, at a time where basic questions around people having enough money to live aren't being answered. The right accuse the left of being obsessed with identity issues, and yet I'd say the subject of trans identity much more of a preoccupation amongst the mainstream right than it is the mainstream left (once you get offline and off the Twitter sphere).

The problem with that analysis is that the leadership campaign’s focus on it is based on the candidates attempting to take a position that comes over as sane enough to fly with the electorate, not to bore the electorate with a subject it isn’t interested in.
Again - look at the tweet above. It’s the left *introducing* identity issues, and the right given the opportunity to *ridicule* the left, while also taking the opportunity to distract from the issue at hand - abortion rights.

The Tories don’t need to fixate on the issue - they can fight their election campaign on their usual footing. What they can do is ridicule Labour’s position on this. Expect to see plenty of “can you trust a person who doesn’t know what a woman is to do right by women?” takes when they have a chance to have a potshot at one of the less bright Labour MPs.

The only reason the right care about identity politics is because they’ve identified it correctly as a weak spot in the left. Which is, again, why it’s an issue that the left should be thrashing out by itself.

And is, again, why I keep maintaining that it’s the trans extremists that are the mainstream trans activism. That’s why in the clip above, the woman speaking can’t say something as obvious as “Look, if we’re talking about sex, *of course* men can’t get pregnant. Everyone who can get pregnant is female. When we refer to trans men as men, we’re using the word to mean something different from sex. It’s important that we delineate where sex matters, and where gender identity matters so we can move on and defend the rights of female people, how ever the identify”. But mainstream trans activism means the left *cant* say that, because it maintains that gender identity is the only criteria for whether someone is a man or woman, with our actual sex being irrelevant.

It’s literally reality denial, and no, I don’t think the right are vulnerable when pointing out that the left are demonstrably denying reality.

Which people who voted Tory in the last election would be unlikely to do so if the Tories, among other policies, maintain that sex exists and so trans woman shouldn’t be considered female in all circumstances? I can’t see it.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:48 pm Bleats about the need for conversation and being open to debate on topics and follows it up with, “I’m not misunderstanding, but you’re wrong.” To a well balanced response. That openness really promotes people wanting to bother giving “substantive answers”.
Lots of words, very little content. Still, amusing to see them disappearing down the black hole of the high brow public forum that is an Orient message board, and an unofficial one, at that.

Off to the match now.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:48 pm Bleats about the need for conversation and being open to debate on topics and follows it up with, “I’m not misunderstanding, but you’re wrong.” To a well balanced response. That openness really promotes people wanting to bother giving “substantive answers”.
Lots of words, very little content. Still, amusing to see them disappearing down the black hole of the high brow public forum that is an Orient message board, and an unofficial one, at that.

Off to the match now.