BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:42 pm
I'm not ignoring the effects on the economy of any further lockdowns or other restrictions. I just don't believe we can "simply" isolate the vulnerable and let everyone else crack on as normal. It can't work like that because of the numbers of people (plus their families) who support the vulnerable (to include the old).
This, 100%. Anyone stating "simply isolate the vulnerable, let me go back to normal" from now on needs to set out how this is workable in practice, because enough people have set out how it isn't.
BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:42 pm
I'm not ignoring the effects on the economy of any further lockdowns or other restrictions. I just don't believe we can "simply" isolate the vulnerable and let everyone else crack on as normal. It can't work like that because of the numbers of people (plus their families) who support the vulnerable (to include the old).
This, 100%. Anyone stating "simply isolate the vulnerable, let me go back to normal" from now on needs to set out how this is workable in practice, because enough people have set out how it isn't.
I think we've all had quite enough of experts - now we only like 3 word catchphrases like "Isolate the vulnerable". We can get enough people to sign up to that as it sounds quite catchy - once it becomes clear that it's not actually possible, and the bodies start piling up, we can blame the naysayers for not being enthusiastic enough and not coming up with a way to make it work.
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:17 pm
by George M
Point taken BoniO
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:51 pm
by George M
Isolating the vulnerable is not impossible. Proper and regular testing of care and hospital staff should be paramount.
There are plenty of old and vulnerable shielding at the moment successfully.
It is clear that young , fit , and healthy are simply inconvenienced when contracting Covid , not dying from it.
It may have to be the case that we preserve the economy, accept and hope that deaths don’t multiply to unacceptable levels , or risk greater numbers losing their lives as a result of current and any future stricter measures ,in addition to destroying the economy and the fabric of our society irreversibly.
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:54 pm
by George M
I , fortunately, don’t have to make that decision . Increasingly , however , they seem to be the two options.
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:56 pm
by Story of O
Looks like the French are allowing some crowds in. I have just watched the French MotoGP and there was spectators there.
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:07 pm
by PoliticOs
George wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:51 pm
Isolating the vulnerable is not impossible. Proper and regular testing of care and hospital staff should be paramount.
There are plenty of old and vulnerable shielding at the moment successfully.
It is clear that young , fit , and healthy are simply inconvenienced when contracting Covid , not dying from it.
It may have to be the case that we preserve the economy, accept and hope that deaths don’t multiply to unacceptable levels , or risk greater numbers losing their lives as a result of current and any future stricter measures ,in addition to destroying the economy and the fabric of our society irreversibly.
In a more positive stance, it wouldn't destroy the fabric of our economy. Or our society irreversibly either. It will put many things and industries and people on their knees but we're essentially dealing with a tap system of turning the tap on (reducing lockdown measures) and turning it off (lockdowns). How long the tap is off for is relative. It's not a economy vs health scenario where one wins and the other losers, as they both affect each other.
But yeah, pandemics are a big ol' pile of poo poo.
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:26 am
by Dunners
A Pedant wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:54 pm
...Anyone stating "simply isolate the vulnerable, let me go back to normal" from now on needs to set out how this is workable in practice, because enough people have set out how it isn't.
George wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:27 pm
PoliticOs
You are bright enough to add more/higher to those categories. I think most understood.
For the record , I am 62 , born in London, and have worked through 3 awful recessions .
This recession could be the most damaging of all.
It probably will be! And the death rates causes from those previous crises are not to be underestimated, nor the austerity that followed. But none of those issues were, literally, airborne.
Are you sure about that?
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:25 am
by Long slender neck
Story of O wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:55 pm
We had a long lockdown at the start of this and numbers came down. Restrictions were eased and slowly we have got to where are now and so another lockdown is being spoken about. What's to say if we lockdown now the same thing won't happen again. We can't go on like this for much longer without serious damage to the economy and the unseen damage to peoples mental health could be huge. We have to eventually learn to live with Covid.
Of course it will come back again, its not even clear if a vaccine will work.
People managed to shield during the first lockdown, not sure why people are now saying its impossible!
I'm not looking for a 100% return to normality, I think masks, distancing and increased hygiene should still continue.
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:57 am
by BoniO
Correct - shielding is possible during Lockdown - but that’s not what’s being proposed is it? You and others are proposing that the vulnerable should shield without a general Lockdown. Two very different scenarios, as you well know.
George wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:27 pm
PoliticOs
You are bright enough to add more/higher to those categories. I think most understood.
For the record , I am 62 , born in London, and have worked through 3 awful recessions .
This recession could be the most damaging of all.
It probably will be! And the death rates causes from those previous crises are not to be underestimated, nor the austerity that followed. But none of those issues were, literally, airborne.
Are you sure about that?
Yeah neither of the previous recessions were airborne. This one isn't exactly that, but its the only one were there is a danger whilst being around other people and P2PT so has pretty different challenges.
I can't think of any problem at all - it'll all be peachy!
PS - as you've assured me that you're not on a wind up I think you should get your short term memory checked out.
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:38 pm
by Long slender neck
How about shielding, no lockdown but still with distancing measures etc? Even most of the commenters on The Guardian are against another lockdown.
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:48 pm
by A Pedant
NHS England's medical director Prof Stephen Powis earlier:
"The claim that the elderly can somehow just be fenced off from risk is wishful thinking."
"We're learning about the long-term side-effects of Covid, which can also affect the young. These debilitating symptoms are becoming more apparent, this is not just a problem for the elderly, this is a potential problem for all age groups."
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:56 pm
by BoniO
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:38 pm
How about shielding, no lockdown but still with distancing measures etc? Even most of the commenters on The Guardian are against another lockdown.
So what is the process behind that? How will that actually work for Care Homes? How will that actually work for the vulnerable who need support at home?
You really can't judge how/if anything will work based on headlines only. You need to see the meat on the bones before you can consider feasibility and effectiveness. Christ, I'm repeating myself over and over here. Think I'll just wait now and see what dopy bollocks has to say about the new restrictions later this afternoon.
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:11 pm
by Long slender neck
Give me a few billion and I'll formulate a detailed plan.
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:18 pm
by BoniO
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:11 pm
Give me a few billion and I'll formulate a detailed plan.
Ah, so you're a mate of DC then?
Anyway, nice to see that you have no idea what the process would need to be but you're still advocating for "protect the vulnerable" and let the rest crack on. You're probably qualified to be a Government Minister with an attitude like that.
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:37 pm
by Long slender neck
Why would I know the details of how care homes etc operate? I know its not impossible though and I know the current approach is unsustainable and damaging for all.
Re: f*** the Govt Time to Let Some Fans In
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:58 pm
by Dunners
Everyone's over-thinking this. The solution has been staring us in the face for as long as we've been watching The Naked Gun.