Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 8:51 pm As per most comments on here Lawless was below expectations. Regression should be expected with him being a year older and a step up so definitely not someone to retain.

I also think his performance at right back is being overplayed. Ling was given stick for putting in that sort of performance there, but there seems to be mitigation for Lawless that he can play there. It's as if the hard of thinking are misremembering his overall performance because we were promoted and they feel warm and fuzzy rather than looking at the reality objectively, in the same way as the Alabi example eag""y quoted above.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 9:50 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 8:51 pm As per most comments on here Lawless was below expectations. Regression should be expected with him being a year older and a step up so definitely not someone to retain.

I also think his performance at right back is being overplayed. Ling was given stick for putting in that sort of performance there, but there seems to be mitigation for Lawless that he can play there. It's as if the hard of thinking are misremembering his overall performance because we were promoted and they feel warm and fuzzy rather than looking at the reality objectively, in the same way as the Alabi example eag""y quoted above.

Not too sure it’s just age, look at Jobi. Hope he gets another year. But I take your point regarding his performances being hyped due to Lings shortcomings. Same happened when Ling replaced Caprice, who I rated. People were so glad to see Caprice go that Ling was hailed as our saviour, whilst in all truth, he was decidedly average to poor. And cost us goals.

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 8:39 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 8:32 pm Sid, give him preseason and see how he goes. Plenty on here slagged off Clay yet he was without doubt one of our best players this past season after having a full pre season and a better understanding of what his manager wanted from him.

I believe Gorman will be the same next season.

Really hope you are correct. Big difference was that even though Clay was not that great in his first season with us, he still played in nearly every game. Gorman hardly figured this season, also does not look strong enough to be a solid, ball winning, holding central midfielder.
We saw what a good player looked like in that position when Adams came here on loan. Such a pity Adams listened too much to his agent.

gshaw wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 5:06 pm

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 8:39 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 8:32 pm Sid, give him preseason and see how he goes. Plenty on here slagged off Clay yet he was without doubt one of our best players this past season after having a full pre season and a better understanding of what his manager wanted from him.

I believe Gorman will be the same next season.

Really hope you are correct. Big difference was that even though Clay was not that great in his first season with us, he still played in nearly every game. Gorman hardly figured this season, also does not look strong enough to be a solid, ball winning, holding central midfielder.
We saw what a good player looked like in that position when Adams came here on loan. Such a pity Adams listened too much to his agent.

That's the key point, Gorman isn't the ball winner. I see him more as a younger Matthew Spring type player alongside Clay / new CM doing the Dawson / Vincelot work breaking up play etc.

Adams was an enforcer but unfortunately one with poor judgement and attitude, leave him in the NL and the past.

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 6:05 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 5:06 pm

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 8:39 pm

Really hope you are correct. Big difference was that even though Clay was not that great in his first season with us, he still played in nearly every game. Gorman hardly figured this season, also does not look strong enough to be a solid, ball winning, holding central midfielder.
We saw what a good player looked like in that position when Adams came here on loan. Such a pity Adams listened too much to his agent.

That's the key point, Gorman isn't the ball winner. I see him more as a younger Matthew Spring type player alongside Clay / new CM doing the Dawson / Vincelot work breaking up play etc.

Adams was an enforcer but unfortunately one with poor judgement and attitude, leave him in the NL and the past.

When the signing of Adams fell through, Gorman was billed as the player chosen to fill that vacancy in central midfield.

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 10:14 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 9:50 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 8:51 pm As per most comments on here Lawless was below expectations. Regression should be expected with him being a year older and a step up so definitely not someone to retain.

I also think his performance at right back is being overplayed. Ling was given stick for putting in that sort of performance there, but there seems to be mitigation for Lawless that he can play there. It's as if the hard of thinking are misremembering his overall performance because we were promoted and they feel warm and fuzzy rather than looking at the reality objectively, in the same way as the Alabi example eag""y quoted above.

Not too sure it’s just age, look at Jobi. Hope he gets another year. But I take your point regarding his performances being hyped due to Lings shortcomings. Same happened when Ling replaced Caprice, who I rated. People were so glad to see Caprice go that Ling was hailed as our saviour, whilst in all truth, he was decidedly average to poor. And cost us goals.

I am still not that sure as to how good Ling is. He was already match fit when he came here from D@R, had been playing well for that team, so I would guess that his confidence was ok when he joined us. At first he did a job for us, solid but not a flare type of attacking fullback. This season, like Judd, he has suffered from injury problems, loss of form and lack of confidence. Out of the two young fullbacks, when both matchfit, I think Judd has more to offer. Quite often players take time to mature, so both Ling and Judd have got time on their hands. Certainly neither of them look to be anywhere near as good at a young age as Dennis Rofe ( albeit a left back ) was. I used to love watching Rofe play, one of my all time favourite players for the Os !!

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 7:50 pm
Denis Rofe was sheer class and his transfer fee, £112k I think a record for a full back at the time only bettered by David Nish. In his early days Ling cost us 2 goals for poor defensive marking that Caprice would have got slaughtered for plus another hit bar shot against Barrow. I kept quiet at the time because I was p*ssed at the anti Caprice brigade on his back after a couple of bad games. Caprice got the last laugh. Ling continued to be generally average, perhaps a little more solid at the back but zero going forward. Doesn’t surprise me he has been found out. Judd for me every time now.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 9:50 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 8:51 pm As per most comments on here Lawless was below expectations. Regression should be expected with him being a year older and a step up so definitely not someone to retain.

I also think his performance at right back is being overplayed. Ling was given stick for putting in that sort of performance there, but there seems to be mitigation for Lawless that he can play there. It's as if the hard of thinking are misremembering his overall performance because we were promoted and they feel warm and fuzzy rather than looking at the reality objectively, in the same way as the Alabi example eag""y quoted above.

Not too sure it’s just age, look at Jobi. Hope he gets another year. But I take your point regarding his performances being hyped due to Lings shortcomings. Same happened when Ling replaced Caprice, who I rated. People were so glad to see Caprice go that Ling was hailed as our saviour, whilst in all truth, he was decidedly average to poor. And cost us goals.

The impact of age on ability isn't linear for all players though - and Lawless looked well short of quality in the NL as it was. Expecting him to reverse his recent trend at age 34 and a higher level is just far too much to ask.

Thor wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 7:15 am Going back to Judd who some say is better or offers more going forwards, you don’t actually see him get beat whilst defending, you don’t see him get targeted by the opposition either. The stats when he played last season were amazing, plus he is only going to getter. The one thing he needs to improve upon is the rashness that he sometimes displays, if he can work on that then that would be a massive step forwards for him.

Rufer wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 10:35 pm

The impact of age on ability isn't linear for all players though - and Lawless looked well short of quality in the NL as it was. Expecting him to reverse his recent trend at age 34 and a higher level is just far too much to ask.

He looked quite sharp tonight

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 8:33 am

Thor wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 7:15 am Going back to Judd who some say is better or offers more going forwards, you don’t actually see him get beat whilst defending, you don’t see him get targeted by the opposition either. The stats when he played last season were amazing, plus he is only going to getter. The one thing he needs to improve upon is the rashness that he sometimes displays, if he can work on that then that would be a massive step forwards for him.

Agree with what you say about Judd but surely the main improvement needed in his case is to get over his injury problems and to be available to play week in week out e.g good example is Bonne !!

Thor wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 1:21 pm

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 8:33 am

Thor wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 7:15 am Going back to Judd who some say is better or offers more going forwards, you don’t actually see him get beat whilst defending, you don’t see him get targeted by the opposition either. The stats when he played last season were amazing, plus he is only going to getter. The one thing he needs to improve upon is the rashness that he sometimes displays, if he can work on that then that would be a massive step forwards for him.

Agree with what you say about Judd but surely the main improvement needed in his case is to get over his injury problems and to be available to play week in week out e.g good example is Bonne !!

True, hopefully his injuries are only a temp issue for him.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 4:40 pm He showed lots of character when he was forced to play out of position at right back but overall, it is hard to justify a contract extension for him based on his two years of mixed output.

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 1:37 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 1:21 pm

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 8:33 am

Agree with what you say about Judd but surely the main improvement needed in his case is to get over his injury problems and to be available to play week in week out e.g good example is Bonne !!

True, hopefully his injuries are only a temp issue for him.

I don't know about being temporary, seems to have been going on for the last two seasons now, his age should be very fit.

Thor wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 4:24 pm

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 1:37 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 1:21 pm

True, hopefully his injuries are only a temp issue for him.

I don't know about being temporary, seems to have been going on for the last two seasons now, his age should be very fit.

If you cast your mind back to Steven Gerard he had a lot of injuries when he first broke through into the Liverpool team, it turned out it was associated with his body growing, it could be he same here with Judd.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 9:33 pm The most disappointing thing about his time here is that we didn’t sing that Absolutely Flawless song to his name, Alexander Lawless.