Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 11:31 am**

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 10:45 am
Stowaway wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 9:05 am Yeah I get your point, but at least Orient are an established outfit. Salford have roots back to 1940 in one form or another, but essentially the current club is a complete rebirth. Fylde only go back 30 years, and as AFC only since 2008. Both of them smack of being millionaire’s playthings, and I really don’t think you can say that about us. Watching the game yesterday they kept showing Gary Neville in the stand, no signs of any of the other ex-Ytd backers anywhere. Odd, that.
So a club being around longer makes it more justifiable for them to be a 'millionaire's plaything'? I guess Fylde and Salford should have waited until the year 2117 to get a rich owner and be bankrolled through the leagues, then nobody would be complaining.

Being "established" isn't just about how old a club is.

It's more to do with the size of the fanbase and the club history of competing in the football league.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 11:45 am**

So you can only be a millionaires plaything if the club has lots of fans?

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 11:47 am**

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 11:45 am So you can only be a millionaires plaything if the club has lots of fans?

Yes

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 11:50 am**

Genuinely interested, would people have been opposed to our entry to the Championship on the account we have no history playing there and would only be getting 6,000 fans, with our only claim to being there being finishing top of League One having spent loads of cash?

It seems a bit hypocritical to start slagging off other clubs for doing the same as what we did a few years back.

Clubs like Bournemouth and Brighton were not pulling in many more fans than us really before the money got pumped in.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 11:57 am**

eagwgw wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 11:50 am Genuinely interested, would people have been opposed to our entry to the Championship on the account we have no history playing there and would only be getting 6,000 fans, with our only claim to being there being finishing top of League One having spent loads of cash?

It seems a bit hypocritical to start slagging off other clubs for doing the same as what we did a few years back.

Clubs like Bournemouth and Brighton were not pulling in many more fans than us really before the money got pumped in.

In my mind, taking an existing established club (like Orient) and pushing them to new heights (the Championship) is a bit different to taking what was essentially a pub team (Salford) and charging up the leagues.

Others may well disagree, and they may be right. I just slightly resent being compared to Salford simply because we have a wealthy owner. The two cases are very different to me.

Either way, who really cares? It's a sign of how successful this season has been that we're sitting here debating this rather than sh*tting our pants about an impending play-off final.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 12:23 pm**

Esteban wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 11:57 am
eagwgw wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 11:50 am Genuinely interested, would people have been opposed to our entry to the Championship on the account we have no history playing there and would only be getting 6,000 fans, with our only claim to being there being finishing top of League One having spent loads of cash?

It seems a bit hypocritical to start slagging off other clubs for doing the same as what we did a few years back.

Clubs like Bournemouth and Brighton were not pulling in many more fans than us really before the money got pumped in.
In my mind, taking an existing established club (like Orient) and pushing them to new heights (the Championship) is a bit different to taking what was essentially a pub team (Salford) and charging up the leagues.

Others may well disagree, and they may be right. I just slightly resent being compared to Salford simply because we have a wealthy owner. The two cases are very different to me.

Either way, who really cares? It's a sign of how successful this season has been that we're sitting here debating this rather than sh*tting our pants about an impending play-off final.

What T&T are trying to do is return LOFC to its "rightful" place (i.e. the third tier) ASAP. It is possible to transform a club sustainably - Watford being the best example: never out of the bottom two divisions before Elton John & Graham Taylor, never out of them since. Looking over the history over many years, you can detect a trend for certain types of clubs (metropolitan, commuter towns in the SE, thriving economies) to do well, while others (post-industrial towns in the provinces, cathedral cities with a large rural hinterland) have dropped off. Salford and Orient both fit into the former category, and if the trend continues they would be a good bet for further growth - assuming Brexit/climate catastrophe etc etc doesn't inhibit Greater Manchester and Greater London's prospects.

The debate here is really just a question of proportion. Salford are coming from much further back, and much less auspicious beginnings, so needed more artificial hothousing to get them to grow. This always (and rightly) feels iffier and less sustainable. Building a real, committed, substantive fanbase takes at least a generation, as you can see in the case of Manchester City - sweeping all before them domestically and still struggling to sell out their games. Take the Arabs away from that, and they'd return from whence they came (probably the second tier) pretty swiftly. So long as Orient had a reasonably sane owner, they could bumble along in the third tier for the foreseeable.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 12:44 pm**

OyinbO wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 12:23 pm
Esteban wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 11:57 am
eagwgw wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 11:50 am Genuinely interested, would people have been opposed to our entry to the Championship on the account we have no history playing there and would only be getting 6,000 fans, with our only claim to being there being finishing top of League One having spent loads of cash?

It seems a bit hypocritical to start slagging off other clubs for doing the same as what we did a few years back.

Clubs like Bournemouth and Brighton were not pulling in many more fans than us really before the money got pumped in.
In my mind, taking an existing established club (like Orient) and pushing them to new heights (the Championship) is a bit different to taking what was essentially a pub team (Salford) and charging up the leagues.

Others may well disagree, and they may be right. I just slightly resent being compared to Salford simply because we have a wealthy owner. The two cases are very different to me.

Either way, who really cares? It's a sign of how successful this season has been that we're sitting here debating this rather than sh*tting our pants about an impending play-off final.
What T&T are trying to do is return LOFC to its "rightful" place (i.e. the third tier) ASAP. It is possible to transform a club sustainably - Watford being the best example: never out of the bottom two divisions before Elton John & Graham Taylor, never out of them since. Looking over the history over many years, you can detect a trend for certain types of clubs (metropolitan, commuter towns in the SE, thriving economies) to do well, while others (post-industrial towns in the provinces, cathedral cities with a large rural hinterland) have dropped off. Salford and Orient both fit into the former category, and if the trend continues they would be a good bet for further growth - assuming Brexit/climate catastrophe etc etc doesn't inhibit Greater Manchester and Greater London's prospects.

The debate here is really just a question of proportion. Salford are coming from much further back, and much less auspicious beginnings, so needed more artificial hothousing to get them to grow. This always (and rightly) feels iffier and less sustainable. Building a real, committed, substantive fanbase takes at least a generation, as you can see in the case of Manchester City - sweeping all before them domestically and still struggling to sell out their games. Take the Arabs away from that, and they'd return from whence they came (probably the second tier) pretty swiftly. So long as Orient had a reasonably sane owner, they could bumble along in the third tier for the foreseeable.

Excellent post. Agree with all of it.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 12:50 pm**

So you think Teagues plan is to restore us to a loss making Division 3 club and bumble around in that division indefinitely?

I know he's coy about the end game but come on, pretty certain this isn't his ambition.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 12:51 pm**

eagwgw wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 11:50 am Genuinely interested, would people have been opposed to our entry to the Championship on the account we have no history playing there and would only be getting 6,000 fans, with our only claim to being there being finishing top of League One having spent loads of cash?

It seems a bit hypocritical to start slagging off other clubs for doing the same as what we did a few years back.

Clubs like Bournemouth and Brighton were not pulling in many more fans than us really before the money got pumped in.

Perfectly put.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 12:56 pm**

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 12:50 pm So you think Teagues plan is to restore us to a loss making Division 3 club and bumble around in that division indefinitely?

I know he's coy about the end game but come on, pretty certain this isn't his ambition.

What do you think his ultimate plan is?

Premier League?

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 1:13 pm**

As said many a time on these boards, I don’t know but would love to.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 1:19 pm**

Should be the Champions League really.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 1:46 pm**

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 12:50 pm So you think Teagues plan is to restore us to a loss making Division 3 club and bumble around in that division indefinitely?

I know he's coy about the end game but come on, pretty certain this isn't his ambition.

As he's become a true Orient fan, I don't think he can be accurately described as "reasonably sane"

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 1:54 pm**

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 12:51 pm
eagwgw wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 11:50 am Genuinely interested, would people have been opposed to our entry to the Championship on the account we have no history playing there and would only be getting 6,000 fans, with our only claim to being there being finishing top of League One having spent loads of cash?

It seems a bit hypocritical to start slagging off other clubs for doing the same as what we did a few years back.

Clubs like Bournemouth and Brighton were not pulling in many more fans than us really before the money got pumped in.
Perfectly put.

Id agree with Bournemouth but Brighton has been a much better supported club than us since the early 80s , excluding the withdean tenure.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 2:13 pm**

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 1:13 pm As said many a time on these boards, I don’t know but would love to.

My main (and probably only) concern with Teague is how long until he gets bored?

It's all fun and games winning the conference within a couple of years of taking over, but how many years of battling away in L2/L1 (wishful thinking) before he packs it all in?

Maybe never. I hope.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 2:15 pm**

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 12:50 pm So you think Teagues plan is to restore us to a loss making Division 3 club and bumble around in that division indefinitely?

I know he's coy about the end game but come on, pretty certain this isn't his ambition.

3-5 years to get out of National league. Job done in 2.
Next goal league one.JE said that this would take 2-4 seasons, before this season. But listening to them, championship is the goal.

They are not saying what they hope to achieve, unlike BH. They realise that there are too many indeterminates.

I think one major goal is to increase income and support. Both of which they have been successful with so far.

If the club continues to be run as well as it is currently. I can see no reason why we cannot continue to be successful in both fields.

One additional point. The club are going to be run with a play off playing budget, which will certainly apply to League two and possibly league one. When Slade was in charge, we were around average, with being 10th in the play off season. Having a good manager makes all the difference.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 2:19 pm**

Esteban wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 2:13 pm
CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 1:13 pm As said many a time on these boards, I don’t know but would love to.
My main (and probably only) concern with Teague is how long until he gets bored?

It's all fun and games winning the conference within a couple of years of taking over, but how many years of battling away in L2/L1 (wishful thinking) before he packs it all in?

Maybe never. I hope.

I think they said that they have a 9-10 year plan. All investment is in place.

KT also said that 20 years is not beyond possibility, in one of the earlier meetings.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 2:24 pm**

Still's Carenae wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 2:19 pm
Esteban wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 2:13 pm
CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 1:13 pm As said many a time on these boards, I don’t know but would love to.
My main (and probably only) concern with Teague is how long until he gets bored?

It's all fun and games winning the conference within a couple of years of taking over, but how many years of battling away in L2/L1 (wishful thinking) before he packs it all in?

Maybe never. I hope.
I think they said that they have a 9-10 year plan. All investment is in place.

KT also said that 20 years is not beyond possibility, in one of the earlier meetings.

Very promising.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 3:05 pm**

I think this deserves to go here. The Accy Stanley chairman discussing the madness of Clubs running at a budgetted loss year after year. Stanley are one of the few clubs in the EFL who try to balance their operational income & expenses.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 5:29 pm**

Esteban wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 12:56 pm
CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 12:50 pm So you think Teagues plan is to restore us to a loss making Division 3 club and bumble around in that division indefinitely?

I know he's coy about the end game but come on, pretty certain this isn't his ambition.
What do you think his ultimate plan is?

Premier League?

Top team in London and take it from there...

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 5:31 pm**

Esteban wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 11:57 am In my mind, taking an existing established club (like Orient) and pushing them to new heights (the Championship)...

When I started following Orient they were at that height!

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 6:24 pm**

I don't know about both these clubs being plastic but I think that either of them will do alright in League Two next season.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2019 6:41 pm**

eagwgw wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 11:50 am Genuinely interested, would people have been opposed to our entry to the Championship on the account we have no history playing there and would only be getting 6,000 fans, with our only claim to being there being finishing top of League One having spent loads of cash?

It seems a bit hypocritical to start slagging off other clubs for doing the same as what we did a few years back.

Clubs like Bournemouth and Brighton were not pulling in many more fans than us really before the money got pumped in.

We do have a history of playing in the second tier though. 41 of them.

Posted: **Wed May 08, 2019 9:53 am**

Buddy Manucci wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 6:41 pm
eagwgw wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 11:50 am Genuinely interested, would people have been opposed to our entry to the Championship on the account we have no history playing there and would only be getting 6,000 fans, with our only claim to being there being finishing top of League One having spent loads of cash?

It seems a bit hypocritical to start slagging off other clubs for doing the same as what we did a few years back.

Clubs like Bournemouth and Brighton were not pulling in many more fans than us really before the money got pumped in.
We do have a history of playing in the second tier though. 41 of them.

There isn't a big gap between top half of the Conference and Div 2. There is a bigger gap between Div 2 and Div 1, but no reason why Orient can't bridge that. (Look at Lincoln, Bristol Rovers, Luton, Oxford). The problem comes at Div 1 to Championship. This has become a chasm. You need financial clout to compete. Bristol Rovers are in the bottom 2/3 of the Division and simply cannot compete for promotion, and that's with average gates of around 8,800 over the last 3 years. It's the ex-Championship Clubs that are miles ahead of the pack. Luton will have a very tough time next year. When we were last in tier 2 (early 90's) it was a much flatter playing field. The average wages are now about 5 times higher in the Championship than Div 1. To make that sustainable average gates would have to reflect that (let's say 20,000+ a ball-park figure that I just made up).
Anyway - if we can cling on to Div 1 status, look forward to playing Orient in a couple of years or so. UTO's & UTG.

Posted: **Wed May 08, 2019 10:06 am**

eppinggas wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 9:53 am When we were last in tier 2 (early 90's) it was a much flatter playing field.

It was 1982 when Orient were in proper Division 2. [oh, just realized you don't mean we as Orient]

Agree that there is a massive difference between League 1 and Championship these days.

Independent Leyton Orient Forum

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