Independent Leyton Orient Forum

My last two questions to Smedrick, Prestige and Red O as i never did get a answer. These two examples you may be able to relate to regards your age and what you have seen with your own eyes.
No1: Could Messi & Ronaldo be great in twenty or thirty years time?
No2: Could Laurie Cunningham and Peter Kitchen get into a current Orient team.
ALL O's supporters who have seen ALL four will be looking and waiting for your answers.

ps Smedrick regards England goalscorers check out Jimmy Greaves 44goals in 57apps. How does that check out with goals per games as against other England goalscorers. Your good at averages etc.

My last two questions to Smedrick, Prestige and Red O as i never did get a answer. These two examples you may be able to relate to regards your age and what you have seen with your own eyes.
No1: Could Messi & Ronaldo be great in twenty or thirty years time?
No2: Could Laurie Cunningham and Peter Kitchen get into a current Orient team.
ALL O's supporters who have seen ALL four will be looking and waiting for your answers.

ps Smedrick regards England goalscorers check out Jimmy Greaves 44goals in 57apps. How does that check out with goals per games as against other England goalscorers. Your good at averages etc.

Sorry old age lol!!

AckneyAwks wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:46 pm My last two questions to Smedrick, Prestige and Red O as i never did get a answer. These two examples you may be able to relate to regards your age and what you have seen with your own eyes.
No1: Could Messi & Ronaldo be great in twenty or thirty years time?
No2: Could Laurie Cunningham and Peter Kitchen get into a current Orient team.
ALL O's supporters who have seen ALL four will be looking and waiting for your answers.

ps Smedrick regards England goalscorers check out Jimmy Greaves 44goals in 57apps. How does that check out with goals per games as against other England goalscorers. Your good at averages etc.

1) Messi and Ronaldo are the best players in the world over decades.. Of course they will be considered great in 20 or 30 years time. Just as Maradona and Pele still are. Greaves obviously wasn’t anywhere near their level.

2) We’re a struggling L2 side. Of course both Cunningham and Kitchen would get in this side.

Re goals per game ratios, as already mentioned, there’s no comparison between the 60s and nowadays.

RedO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:42 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:39 pm Not as old as you!

So your saying pele and Co would not fit in today’s game as well then?

There’s no comparison between pele and Ginny Greaves.

That's right. And that's because they had two completely different styles of play and of goalscoring. Of course, if you're talking about 'flair' then it's a no brainer.

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:54 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:42 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:39 pm Not as old as you!

So your saying pele and Co would not fit in today’s game as well then?

There’s no comparison between pele and Ginny Greaves.

That's right. And that's because they had two completely different styles of play and of goalscoring. Of course, if you're talking about 'flair' then it's a no brainer.

I mean in terms of their level. One was a half decent international class footballer, the other one of the all time greats.

It’s like comparing Jamie Vardy to Messi in the modern era.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:30 pm

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:08 pm

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:46 pm There one lot of hypothesis hot air as usual on here -
Just accept what people saw and imagine my friends - and leave it at that he was great- period.

It's a bit like saying the Rolling Stones nicked all the blues riffs and if they started out 40 years later would just make it as a lousy pub band because the standard of music is mixed to sound more complex

Uppy, that's exactly it. Some younger fans just can't accept what older fans saw in the past. They've been brought up to believe it's all exaggerated, imagined and inferior. A touch of arrogance and even jealousy, you could say. Freesburg is one of them.
Notice in his first post, second paragraph where he says an 'old person' instead of older, and how the sentence is tinged with sarcasm and derision. People like him just cannot sit back and simply say, ' what a striker he must have been with a record like that.' It's because it's not from his era. He was never there. England's greatest goalscorer of all time, we're talking about.
Yes,it's nothing but sheer arrogance.

You're adding nothing new (aside from having a dig), just repeating the same old. The reason I don't sit back as you say is because I'm able to critically assess and come to my conclusion rather than listen to biased views of people who came from a time when they believed everything was better.

Two modern day players and one of Greaves' contemporsries scored more goals for England so the claim that he was "England's greatest goalscorer" is another inaccurate claim too.

Think about it? It's you that's having a dig. And a completely unnecessary one at that.

RedO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:21 pm

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:08 pm

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:46 pm There one lot of hypothesis hot air as usual on here -
Just accept what people saw and imagine my friends - and leave it at that he was great- period.

It's a bit like saying the Rolling Stones nicked all the blues riffs and if they started out 40 years later would just make it as a lousy pub band because the standard of music is mixed to sound more complex

Uppy, that's exactly it. Some younger fans just can't accept what older fans saw in the past. They've been brought up to believe it's all exaggerated, imagined and inferior. A touch of arrogance and even jealousy, you could say. Freesburg is one of them.
Notice in his first post, second paragraph where he says an 'old person' instead of older, and how the sentence is tinged with sarcasm and derision. People like him just cannot sit back and simply say, ' what a striker he must have been with a record like that.' It's because it's not from his era. He was never there. England's greatest goalscorer of all time, we're talking about.
Yes,it's nothing but sheer arrogance.

That’s exactly not it.

It’s nothing but oldies looking back through rose tinted glasses and with a massive dose of nostalgia.

You've proved the point. Arrogance...

AckneyAwks wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:44 pm My last two questions to Smedrick, Prestige and Red O as i never did get a answer. These two examples you may be able to relate to regards your age and what you have seen with your own eyes.
No1: Could Messi & Ronaldo be great in twenty or thirty years time?
No2: Could Laurie Cunningham and Peter Kitchen get into a current Orient team.
ALL O's supporters who have seen ALL four will be looking and waiting for your answers.

ps Smedrick regards England goalscorers check out Jimmy Greaves 44goals in 57apps. How does that check out with goals per games as against other England goalscorers. Your good at averages etc.

You didn't get an answer because we didn't need to give you one and the questions aren't really relevant to this thread. But for the record:

1) What does "Could they be great" mean? They will be classed as greats of their time who were on another level to their peers. In 20-30 years other players will come along who will be at that level or surpass that but football.would again have evolved. Not sure what this has to do with Greaves when he was playing 50+ years ago.

2) At what stage of their career? When they played for Orient? Looking at the division they played in compared to where we are now yes they would, but they were playing at a much higher level then so you'd expect that. It's a bit of an odd question.

Everybody knows what an average is, but to be England's greatest goalscorer you need to score more goals than any other England player.

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:51 am Talk about psychic! I was only look at his goalscoring record yesterday. His record at Chelsea and Spurs is phenomenal.
Ps. Excuse silly comments like Pw's in the above. (like they say, there's always one)

Pre 1965 season, Jimmy Greaves was fantastic, very lean and fit, fast, a great dribbler of the ball and i have seen him live, playing for spurs and going past 5 or 6 players to score goals. Incredible finisher as well, used to place the ball rather than blast it and would often dribble past a few defenders than go round the keeper and walk the ball into the net, also in those days the defenders were allowed to get away with far more than today, so the likes of Greaves, Best etc, came in for a lot of Brutal treatment ( as did Dixie Dean in the 20s and 30s when he played ) After around 1965, Greaves got very ill with Jaundice and when he did start playing again, was never quite as good as he was pre illness. As he said himself, he did not have the same energy and he lost a ''Yard of pace'' So the Greaves we saw in the 1966 World cup was nowhere near the player he had been before. from 1966 onwards he was still scoring goals on a regular basis but was not the same player as in the past. If he was to be around now, starting out as a young player, Greaves and all the great forwards of old would have benefited from the far better pitches of today, better boots, better footballs ( the old leather balls were so heavy when wet ) better training and diets and more than likely would have been amongst the very best players of any era they played in.
Much the same can be said of most sports men and women, cricketers and boxers including the young Cassius Clay ( Clay changed his name later to Muhammad Ali ) People tend to forget that Clay was arrested, found guilty of draft evasion for the Vietnam war and stripped of his boxing titles and from 1966 to 1970 was not allowed to box, so he missed out on nearly four years and lost a period of peak performance as an athlete. The pre being banned Cassius Clay was the best boxer of any weight I have ever seen.

Why is there a need to compare .

Greaves was a Great of His time
McGrory & Dean of theirs .
Same for Messi & Ronaldo
There will be others to come.

Just watch & admire & hope 1 turns
Up at our club someday.

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:40 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:38 pm Astounding from Thor. So players scored more goals back then because they were better, not because the overall standard now is so much higher that goals are harder to score

That’s a different argument, my point still stands, he would have been great in any era. Still waiting for you to point out all these amazing talents in the premier league, there are some, but not many.

Why are you waiting? There's no obligation to respond to a question just because you want an answer. The world doesn't revolve around you.

Off the top of my head, pretty much the whole Liverpool team, the likes of De Bruyne, Aguero, Ederson, Sterling, Mahrez, Bernardo, Laporte, David Silva (until this season), Vardy, Rashford, Aubameyang, Kane, Son, Kanté. That's with minimal thought and just the upper tier off the top of my head when players of all levels have improved.

And notice that these are quality players from several nations. Contrast that to Greaves playing against almost entirely British only talent rather than the best of the best from everywhere. You only have to look at how standards in the then Premiership massively increased when clubs could afford to bring in top class players from other countries to understand that it was easier to play against the best from a couple of small nations.

Can i ask Smedrick did you ever see Cunningham or Kitchen live in the flesh. That is definetly not being sarcastic or in anyway a critisism because you never did say your age. I get the impression you may be in your twenties? I dont see things through rose tinted glasses because i would probably say Messi and/or Ronaldo are probably the greatest players ever. Top of their game for over a decade, fantastic footballers. Just because you did not see something dont decry others who have seen players past and present who had magical ability that cannot be judged by averages and statistics. They were exceptional as is Messi & Ronaldo. By the way what was your answers to my questions.

Can i ask Smedrick did you ever see Cunningham or Kitchen live in the flesh. That is definetly not being sarcastic or in anyway a critisism because you never did say your age. I get the impression you may be in your twenties? I dont see things through rose tinted glasses because i would probably say Messi and/or Ronaldo are probably the greatest players ever. Top of their game for over a decade, fantastic footballers. Just because you did not see something dont decry others who have seen players past and present who had magical ability that cannot be judged by averages and statistics. They were exceptional as is Messi & Ronaldo. By the way what was your answers to my questions.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:30 pm

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:08 pm

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:46 pm There one lot of hypothesis hot air as usual on here -
Just accept what people saw and imagine my friends - and leave it at that he was great- period.

It's a bit like saying the Rolling Stones nicked all the blues riffs and if they started out 40 years later would just make it as a lousy pub band because the standard of music is mixed to sound more complex

Uppy, that's exactly it. Some younger fans just can't accept what older fans saw in the past. They've been brought up to believe it's all exaggerated, imagined and inferior. A touch of arrogance and even jealousy, you could say. Freesburg is one of them.
Notice in his first post, second paragraph where he says an 'old person' instead of older, and how the sentence is tinged with sarcasm and derision. People like him just cannot sit back and simply say, ' what a striker he must have been with a record like that.' It's because it's not from his era. He was never there. England's greatest goalscorer of all time, we're talking about.
Yes,it's nothing but sheer arrogance.

You're adding nothing new (aside from having a dig), just repeating the same old. The reason I don't sit back as you say is because I'm able to critically assess and come to my conclusion rather than listen to biased views of people who came from a time when they believed everything was better.

Two modern day players and one of Greaves' contemporsries scored more goals for England so the claim that he was "England's greatest goalscorer" is another inaccurate claim too.

Oh you poor thing you..Why are you getting so uptight about the past! And who is saying that 'everything' was better? You just keep proving my point.

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:50 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:30 pm

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:08 pm

Uppy, that's exactly it. Some younger fans just can't accept what older fans saw in the past. They've been brought up to believe it's all exaggerated, imagined and inferior. A touch of arrogance and even jealousy, you could say. Freesburg is one of them.
Notice in his first post, second paragraph where he says an 'old person' instead of older, and how the sentence is tinged with sarcasm and derision. People like him just cannot sit back and simply say, ' what a striker he must have been with a record like that.' It's because it's not from his era. He was never there. England's greatest goalscorer of all time, we're talking about.
Yes,it's nothing but sheer arrogance.

You're adding nothing new (aside from having a dig), just repeating the same old. The reason I don't sit back as you say is because I'm able to critically assess and come to my conclusion rather than listen to biased views of people who came from a time when they believed everything was better.

Two modern day players and one of Greaves' contemporsries scored more goals for England so the claim that he was "England's greatest goalscorer" is another inaccurate claim too.

Oh you poor thing you..Why are you getting so uptight about the past! And who is saying that 'everything' was better? You just keep proving my point.

You've already replied to this post and you feel the need to reply again? Your responses are non sensical and an attempt to drag this into the gutter where you can use your experience.

AckneyAwks wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:49 pm Can i ask Smedrick did you ever see Cunningham or Kitchen live in the flesh. That is definetly not being sarcastic or in anyway a critisism because you never did say your age. I get the impression you may be in your twenties? I dont see things through rose tinted glasses because i would probably say Messi and/or Ronaldo are probably the greatest players ever. Top of their game for over a decade, fantastic footballers. Just because you did not see something dont decry others who have seen players past and present who had magical ability that cannot be judged by averages and statistics. They were exceptional as is Messi & Ronaldo. By the way what was your answers to my questions.

I'm not decrying players I haven't seen. I'm critically evaluating whether Greaves would have been successful today by looking at all sorts of factors instead of just plonking the number of goals he scored 40-60 years ago and lazily saying that would make him a top scorer in this age.

I didn't see either Cunningham or Kitchen live though I am older than your estimate.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:20 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:40 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:38 pm Astounding from Thor. So players scored more goals back then because they were better, not because the overall standard now is so much higher that goals are harder to score

That’s a different argument, my point still stands, he would have been great in any era. Still waiting for you to point out all these amazing talents in the premier league, there are some, but not many.

Why are you waiting? There's no obligation to respond to a question just because you want an answer. The world doesn't revolve around you.

Off the top of my head, pretty much the whole Liverpool team, the likes of De Bruyne, Aguero, Ederson, Sterling, Mahrez, Bernardo, Laporte, David Silva (until this season), Vardy, Rashford, Aubameyang, Kane, Son, Kanté. That's with minimal thought and just the upper tier off the top of my head when players of all levels have improved.

And notice that these are quality players from several nations. Contrast that to Greaves playing against almost entirely British only talent rather than the best of the best from everywhere. You only have to look at how standards in the then Premiership massively increased when clubs could afford to bring in top class players from other countries to understand that it was easier to play against the best from a couple of small nations.

See you’ve proved my point exactly.

Sterling, Rashford, Vardy, Mahrez, Son all good players but none of them are world class. The rest I’d probably give you as being really good, but some of those left are not world class either.

There is a shortage of true quality and unfortunately too many people buy into the sky tv nonsense of the best league in the world, it was, I’m not sure it’s been for a couple of years now. Which proves my point.

Smedrick i owe you an apology you can ignore my last post as you had already answered. Sorry! I will not reply anymore but you have definetly without doubt confirmed something that i already knew. Good luck

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:31 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:27 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:18 pm

He’s a p*ss head.

He doesn’t have the application and drive that the players in the current era have.

And the quality of players is far far higher than it was 60 years ago. Even thinking of the gap back to the early 1990s the difference is huge. How many genuine top level players would Greaves have played against 60 years ago? Can probably count on the fingers of one hand. Compare that to nowadays when you have the number of top level talents from all over the world in the top flight.

That’s you option and in mine you are talking absolute tosh. There are about 400 players in the premier league show me 10% who are top talents, cos I could count to about ten and then it will become hard. I await your list.

The second point you make is about strikers and how many scored 20+ in 1970. There are less today as there is less talent than back then. Strikers cost a premium cos there ain’t many around! Think about it.

What the f***?

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:04 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:20 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:40 pm

That’s a different argument, my point still stands, he would have been great in any era. Still waiting for you to point out all these amazing talents in the premier league, there are some, but not many.

Why are you waiting? There's no obligation to respond to a question just because you want an answer. The world doesn't revolve around you.

Off the top of my head, pretty much the whole Liverpool team, the likes of De Bruyne, Aguero, Ederson, Sterling, Mahrez, Bernardo, Laporte, David Silva (until this season), Vardy, Rashford, Aubameyang, Kane, Son, Kanté. That's with minimal thought and just the upper tier off the top of my head when players of all levels have improved.

And notice that these are quality players from several nations. Contrast that to Greaves playing against almost entirely British only talent rather than the best of the best from everywhere. You only have to look at how standards in the then Premiership massively increased when clubs could afford to bring in top class players from other countries to understand that it was easier to play against the best from a couple of small nations.

See you’ve proved my point exactly.

Sterling, Rashford, Vardy, Mahrez, Son all good players but none of them are world class. The rest I’d probably give you as being really good, but some of those left are not world class either.

There is a shortage of true quality and unfortunately too many people buy into the sky tv nonsense of the best league in the world, it was, I’m not sure it’s been for a couple of years now. Which proves my point.

What the hell is your point?

No evidence at all that suggests greaves would make it in today's game.

He was good at the time, but you have to admit he was playing against total poo poo.

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:04 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:20 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:40 pm

That’s a different argument, my point still stands, he would have been great in any era. Still waiting for you to point out all these amazing talents in the premier league, there are some, but not many.

Why are you waiting? There's no obligation to respond to a question just because you want an answer. The world doesn't revolve around you.

Off the top of my head, pretty much the whole Liverpool team, the likes of De Bruyne, Aguero, Ederson, Sterling, Mahrez, Bernardo, Laporte, David Silva (until this season), Vardy, Rashford, Aubameyang, Kane, Son, Kanté. That's with minimal thought and just the upper tier off the top of my head when players of all levels have improved.

And notice that these are quality players from several nations. Contrast that to Greaves playing against almost entirely British only talent rather than the best of the best from everywhere. You only have to look at how standards in the then Premiership massively increased when clubs could afford to bring in top class players from other countries to understand that it was easier to play against the best from a couple of small nations.

See you’ve proved my point exactly.

Sterling, Rashford, Vardy, Mahrez, Son all good players but none of them are world class. The rest I’d probably give you as being really good, but some of those left are not world class either.

There is a shortage of true quality and unfortunately too many people buy into the sky tv nonsense of the best league in the world, it was, I’m not sure it’s been for a couple of years now. Which proves my point.

How do those players listed compare to the best of British that Greaves played against, given that we know how much the standard of football improved when Premier league teams were bringing in better players from abroad?

Oh yeah he played in a time when England were the best team in the world not for one tournament but several years. Must have been a bad standard that.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:52 pm

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:50 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:30 pm

You're adding nothing new (aside from having a dig), just repeating the same old. The reason I don't sit back as you say is because I'm able to critically assess and come to my conclusion rather than listen to biased views of people who came from a time when they believed everything was better.

Two modern day players and one of Greaves' contemporsries scored more goals for England so the claim that he was "England's greatest goalscorer" is another inaccurate claim too.

Oh you poor thing you..Why are you getting so uptight about the past! And who is saying that 'everything' was better? You just keep proving my point.

You've already replied to this post and you feel the need to reply again? Your responses are non sensical and an attempt to drag this into the gutter where you can use your experience.

So my responses are nonsensical, when all you can do is criticise and demean the great goalscoring feats of Jimmy Greaves! You sound mixed up. I will leave you now Feesberg to wallow in your argumentative and pompous world of greavances..