Independent Leyton Orient Forum

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:04 am

Andy Gilson wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:22 am Everything is budgeted at the club, they won't be relegated

I know you're part of the club PR / propaganda machine that's been running at political levels the past few days but the complacency to state we won't be relegated is simply astounding.

That's the kind of attitude Ross and the players are displaying, thinking they can waltz through games without putting the effort in. If anyone comes in and tries to give them the requisite kick up the backside they close ranks as we've now learnt.

eagwgw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:46 am

Andy Gilson wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:22 am Fletcher had the players running for hours on the Friday before the Carlisle match, quelle suprise they ran out of steam 2nd half. Fletcher I think had read that infamous parody 'How To Lose Friends & Alienate People'.
I think most of us know that unfortunately a few players are not making the required step up and will obviously not have their contracts renewed.
Everything is budgeted at the club, they won't be relegated, but any changes to staff will have to fall in with their budget and costings projections.
Us lot have to sit tight and mostly wait til June when many contracts will be up.

The trouble is some of those who aren't gonna be good enough have already had their contracts renewed! And the ones that haven't signed might be worth keeping.

Ekpiteta is perhaps the only one who should get one, he is worth a decent fee.

Gorman, Sargeant, Sotiriou might be worth it as cheap backup, also they have not had much chance.

McAnuff, Dayton, Harrold gone for sure. Alabi as well. But that was always going to be the case.

The problematic ones are those who might have no interest from League clubs, but are on League money and therefore quite difficult to shift even if transfer listed. We saw that with Alabi this season but we might have three or four of this type next year.

Ekpiteta will be gone on a free or a nominal fee in Jan if he doesn't sign a new contract.

Gorman I doubt is cheap, Sargeant not good enough, Sotiriou worth hanging onto if they give him a chance.

With Ross in charge I wouldn't be surprised if Alabi got a contract extension, that's how ridiculous it's got now.

Loyal_Supporter wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:27 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:04 am

Andy Gilson wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:22 am Everything is budgeted at the club, they won't be relegated

I know you're part of the club PR / propaganda machine that's been running at political levels the past few days but the complacency to state we won't be relegated is simply astounding.

That's the kind of attitude Ross and the players are displaying, thinking they can waltz through games without putting the effort in. If anyone comes in and tries to give them the requisite kick up the backside they close ranks as we've now learnt.

eagwgw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:46 am

The trouble is some of those who aren't gonna be good enough have already had their contracts renewed! And the ones that haven't signed might be worth keeping.

Ekpiteta is perhaps the only one who should get one, he is worth a decent fee.

Gorman, Sargeant, Sotiriou might be worth it as cheap backup, also they have not had much chance.

McAnuff, Dayton, Harrold gone for sure. Alabi as well. But that was always going to be the case.

The problematic ones are those who might have no interest from League clubs, but are on League money and therefore quite difficult to shift even if transfer listed. We saw that with Alabi this season but we might have three or four of this type next year.

Ekpiteta will be gone on a free or a nominal fee in Jan if he doesn't sign a new contract.

Gorman I doubt is cheap, Sargeant not good enough, Sotiriou worth hanging onto if they give him a chance.

With Ross in charge I wouldn't be surprised if Alabi got a contract extension, that's how ridiculous it's got now.

Sargeant not good enough? Have you ever seen him play? He's been better than Brill when he's came into the side this season. He should be starting.

Chicken Dhansak wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:58 pm This is what happens when backroom staff have been around for some time. Some of the start to go stale and think they've got
a job for life. In other words they think they are bullet proof.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:30 pm

Chicken Dhansak wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:58 pm This is what happens when backroom staff have been around for some time. Some of the start to go stale and think they've got
a job for life. In other words they think they are bullet proof.

Are you saying the club should call an Uber for Danny, Ross and Jobi?

whittle81 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:27 pm What has happened to Fletcher may mean other applicants will be put of, as it clear it is going take sometime for the coaching staff to come to terms with the loss of Justin. I just don't think they are ready for any 'outsider'.

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:51 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:30 pm

Chicken Dhansak wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:58 pm This is what happens when backroom staff have been around for some time. Some of the start to go stale and think they've got
a job for life. In other words they think they are bullet proof.

Are you saying the club should call an Uber for Danny, Ross and Jobi?

I think 3 Coaches plus a Manager/Head Coach for a division 2 team is a bit over the top. I remember the time we has just ONE coach called Les Gore and one Manager, seemed to work not too badly !! Also proves the case somewhat for allowing a manager to bring in his own no two as in Carl Fletchers case, seemed like the existing coaching staff were ''Singing from a different hymn sheet'' So how can any new manager manage in his own way if he has to compromise his tactics and way of setting up a team to suit the existing coaching staff ? What with a powerful DOF, very hard for anyone to come in and manage a team as they wish to.

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:29 pm

whittle81 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:27 pm What has happened to Fletcher may mean other applicants will be put of, as it clear it is going take sometime for the coaching staff to come to terms with the loss of Justin. I just don't think they are ready for any 'outsider'.

That's why I feel Russell Slade would have been a good choice because of the experience and character he has . If anybody could have come in from outside and been OK it would have been Russell.

Loyal_Supporter wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:27 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:04 am

Andy Gilson wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:22 am Everything is budgeted at the club, they won't be relegated

I know you're part of the club PR / propaganda machine that's been running at political levels the past few days but the complacency to state we won't be relegated is simply astounding.

That's the kind of attitude Ross and the players are displaying, thinking they can waltz through games without putting the effort in. If anyone comes in and tries to give them the requisite kick up the backside they close ranks as we've now learnt.

eagwgw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:46 am

The trouble is some of those who aren't gonna be good enough have already had their contracts renewed! And the ones that haven't signed might be worth keeping.

Ekpiteta is perhaps the only one who should get one, he is worth a decent fee.

Gorman, Sargeant, Sotiriou might be worth it as cheap backup, also they have not had much chance.

McAnuff, Dayton, Harrold gone for sure. Alabi as well. But that was always going to be the case.

The problematic ones are those who might have no interest from League clubs, but are on League money and therefore quite difficult to shift even if transfer listed. We saw that with Alabi this season but we might have three or four of this type next year.

Ekpiteta will be gone on a free or a nominal fee in Jan if he doesn't sign a new contract.

Gorman I doubt is cheap, Sargeant not good enough, Sotiriou worth hanging onto if they give him a chance.

With Ross in charge I wouldn't be surprised if Alabi got a contract extension, that's how ridiculous it's got now.

Sargeant not good enough? Have you ever seen him play? He's been better than Brill when he's came into the side this season. He should be starting.

Thor wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:16 pm Agree with dis, it can hit the play off places with the ability within it. I hope the trio of Ross, Danny and Jobi sort out the mess we've found ourselves in.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:30 pm

Chicken Dhansak wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:58 pm This is what happens when backroom staff have been around for some time. Some of the start to go stale and think they've got
a job for life. In other words they think they are bullet proof.

Are you saying the club should call an Uber for Danny, Ross and Jobi?

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:04 am

Andy Gilson wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:22 am Everything is budgeted at the club, they won't be relegated

I know you're part of the club PR / propaganda machine that's been running at political levels the past few days but the complacency to state we won't be relegated is simply astounding.

That's the kind of attitude Ross and the players are displaying, thinking they can waltz through games without putting the effort in. If anyone comes in and tries to give them the requisite kick up the backside they close ranks as we've now learnt.

eagwgw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:46 am

Andy Gilson wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:22 am Fletcher had the players running for hours on the Friday before the Carlisle match, quelle suprise they ran out of steam 2nd half. Fletcher I think had read that infamous parody 'How To Lose Friends & Alienate People'.
I think most of us know that unfortunately a few players are not making the required step up and will obviously not have their contracts renewed.
Everything is budgeted at the club, they won't be relegated, but any changes to staff will have to fall in with their budget and costings projections.
Us lot have to sit tight and mostly wait til June when many contracts will be up.

The trouble is some of those who aren't gonna be good enough have already had their contracts renewed! And the ones that haven't signed might be worth keeping.

Ekpiteta is perhaps the only one who should get one, he is worth a decent fee.

Gorman, Sargeant, Sotiriou might be worth it as cheap backup, also they have not had much chance.

McAnuff, Dayton, Harrold gone for sure. Alabi as well. But that was always going to be the case.

The problematic ones are those who might have no interest from League clubs, but are on League money and therefore quite difficult to shift even if transfer listed. We saw that with Alabi this season but we might have three or four of this type next year.

Ekpiteta will be gone on a free or a nominal fee in Jan if he doesn't sign a new contract.

Gorman I doubt is cheap, Sargeant not good enough, Sotiriou worth hanging onto if they give him a chance.

With Ross in charge I wouldn't be surprised if Alabi got a contract extension, that's how ridiculous it's got now.

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:30 pm

Loyal_Supporter wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:27 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:04 am

I know you're part of the club PR / propaganda machine that's been running at political levels the past few days but the complacency to state we won't be relegated is simply astounding.

That's the kind of attitude Ross and the players are displaying, thinking they can waltz through games without putting the effort in. If anyone comes in and tries to give them the requisite kick up the backside they close ranks as we've now learnt.



Ekpiteta will be gone on a free or a nominal fee in Jan if he doesn't sign a new contract.

Gorman I doubt is cheap, Sargeant not good enough, Sotiriou worth hanging onto if they give him a chance.

With Ross in charge I wouldn't be surprised if Alabi got a contract extension, that's how ridiculous it's got now.

Sargeant not good enough? Have you ever seen him play? He's been better than Brill when he's came into the side this season. He should be starting.

Yes I watched the goals flying past him in the highlights of the games he's played. All ones a first choice keeper should do far better with. Not the answer and lack of experience would destabilise a wobbly defence even further. The fact we played a half-fit Brill at start of the season rather than him speaks volumes.

Send him out on loan to an NL side in Jan to play as first choice there and get an experienced loan keeper in until end of the season.

Andy Gilson wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:50 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:04 am

Andy Gilson wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:22 am Everything is budgeted at the club, they won't be relegated

I know you're part of the club PR / propaganda machine that's been running at political levels the past few days but the complacency to state we won't be relegated is simply astounding.

That's the kind of attitude Ross and the players are displaying, thinking they can waltz through games without putting the effort in. If anyone comes in and tries to give them the requisite kick up the backside they close ranks as we've now learnt.

eagwgw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:46 am

The trouble is some of those who aren't gonna be good enough have already had their contracts renewed! And the ones that haven't signed might be worth keeping.

Ekpiteta is perhaps the only one who should get one, he is worth a decent fee.

Gorman, Sargeant, Sotiriou might be worth it as cheap backup, also they have not had much chance.

McAnuff, Dayton, Harrold gone for sure. Alabi as well. But that was always going to be the case.

The problematic ones are those who might have no interest from League clubs, but are on League money and therefore quite difficult to shift even if transfer listed. We saw that with Alabi this season but we might have three or four of this type next year.

Ekpiteta will be gone on a free or a nominal fee in Jan if he doesn't sign a new contract.

Gorman I doubt is cheap, Sargeant not good enough, Sotiriou worth hanging onto if they give him a chance.

With Ross in charge I wouldn't be surprised if Alabi got a contract extension, that's how ridiculous it's got now.

I am not part of the clubs PR machine, if I think somethings not right, I will say so.
I said on Orient Hour that's its patently clear we need to sign 3 or 4 players in the window.

Andy Gilson wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:50 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:04 am

Andy Gilson wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:22 am Everything is budgeted at the club, they won't be relegated

I know you're part of the club PR / propaganda machine that's been running at political levels the past few days but the complacency to state we won't be relegated is simply astounding.

That's the kind of attitude Ross and the players are displaying, thinking they can waltz through games without putting the effort in. If anyone comes in and tries to give them the requisite kick up the backside they close ranks as we've now learnt.

eagwgw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:46 am

The trouble is some of those who aren't gonna be good enough have already had their contracts renewed! And the ones that haven't signed might be worth keeping.

Ekpiteta is perhaps the only one who should get one, he is worth a decent fee.

Gorman, Sargeant, Sotiriou might be worth it as cheap backup, also they have not had much chance.

McAnuff, Dayton, Harrold gone for sure. Alabi as well. But that was always going to be the case.

The problematic ones are those who might have no interest from League clubs, but are on League money and therefore quite difficult to shift even if transfer listed. We saw that with Alabi this season but we might have three or four of this type next year.

Ekpiteta will be gone on a free or a nominal fee in Jan if he doesn't sign a new contract.

Gorman I doubt is cheap, Sargeant not good enough, Sotiriou worth hanging onto if they give him a chance.

With Ross in charge I wouldn't be surprised if Alabi got a contract extension, that's how ridiculous it's got now.

I am not part of the clubs PR machine, if I think somethings not right, I will say so.
I said on Orient Hour that's its patently clear we need to sign 3 or 4 players in the window.

Adz wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:08 pm Sounds like CF had the right idea, but the wrong implementation. I can see why Travis talks about the culture fit not being right. A leader needs to take people with him on a journey, not just tell them what to do.

Lucky7 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:02 pm

Andy Gilson wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:50 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:04 am

I know you're part of the club PR / propaganda machine that's been running at political levels the past few days but the complacency to state we won't be relegated is simply astounding.

That's the kind of attitude Ross and the players are displaying, thinking they can waltz through games without putting the effort in. If anyone comes in and tries to give them the requisite kick up the backside they close ranks as we've now learnt.



Ekpiteta will be gone on a free or a nominal fee in Jan if he doesn't sign a new contract.

Gorman I doubt is cheap, Sargeant not good enough, Sotiriou worth hanging onto if they give him a chance.

With Ross in charge I wouldn't be surprised if Alabi got a contract extension, that's how ridiculous it's got now.

I am not part of the clubs PR machine, if I think somethings not right, I will say so.
I said on Orient Hour that's its patently clear we need to sign 3 or 4 players in the window.

You need to sign 3 or 4 decent chat buddies it’s not still the 80s get with the times
Once a brown nose and all that I trust Gilso 0%

Eat The Rich wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:29 pm I agree with @Adz and @Doh Nut

I think everyone would have been more receptive to CF if he'd had an achievable short term, mid term and long term plan. Instead he had barely got his legs under the table and he was ripping everything up. There were four really crucial points that have been made that really illustrate the point.

Firstly he tried to give the players an aggressive pre-season in the middle of November. That alone will have destroyed both the good will and trust in the manager. Player's would know that it wasn't the right time to be doing that, that pressing ahead with it would lead to exhaustion and injury, which is exactly what happened. They've looked knackered ever since and Dayton picked up a strain as soon as he came back. How many others have also picked up tweaks since Fletcher arrived?

The second thing is a question of attitude and morale. Ling. snr made the point about Fletcher being very focused on critiquing all the players, telling them what made them poor players. It might be true to say that Alabi couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo but how much good is it going to do his confidence to tell him that straight to his face? Do you think he would now be more likely to score? Ling had it right that if you want to see the best of people then you need to give them confidence, show some belief in them and focus on their strengths. The time to help them with their weaknesses is when you've won their trust and they're playing well. In times of crisis you focus on strengths, in times of success you try to gain an extra advantage by working on your weaknesses.

The third factor was mentioned by Ling & Kent. It was that Fletcher did not understand how League 2 clubs work. Fletcher didn't consider that there are cycles that clubs at this level work to. You generally have half to a third of your squad out of contract every year. That way you never have to do a full rebuild. You generally won't be able to sell the players you don't want because there won't be any takers willing to pay. Clubs wait for players' contracts to expire. That means you have to plan your transfer activity accordingly. Fletcher wanted Ling & Kent to get rid of players who had 18 months left on their contracts. Its just not realistic. No one is going to pay for them and there's no way the club could pay them all off. Its totally unrealistic. Fletcher failed, once again, to take a short, medium and long term view.

His final mistake was in trying to implement a drastically different playing style, based around probing possession and aggressive counter pressing. Now, that's a lot to ask of League Two players at the best of times but to try to do it on day one is patently absurd. Instead of realising that he wanted the impossible he tried to change the players through an aggressive mid-season pre-season and transfer list those he deemed unsuitable to his plans. That is not how football management works.

He should have known all of this. He should gone in, assessed his squad, worked out how to get the best out of them. Then he should have made a not of the 1/3rd of his squad that were out of contract and decided who was staying and who was going. From there you can plan on who to recruit in January and in the summer to replace them, ideally with players that are a bit more suitable to the long term plan. These are things every coach knows, or at least I thought they did, because its all part of your coaching badges.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:17 pm

Eat The Rich wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:29 pm I agree with @Adz and @Doh Nut

I think everyone would have been more receptive to CF if he'd had an achievable short term, mid term and long term plan. Instead he had barely got his legs under the table and he was ripping everything up. There were four really crucial points that have been made that really illustrate the point.

Firstly he tried to give the players an aggressive pre-season in the middle of November. That alone will have destroyed both the good will and trust in the manager. Player's would know that it wasn't the right time to be doing that, that pressing ahead with it would lead to exhaustion and injury, which is exactly what happened. They've looked knackered ever since and Dayton picked up a strain as soon as he came back. How many others have also picked up tweaks since Fletcher arrived?

The second thing is a question of attitude and morale. Ling. snr made the point about Fletcher being very focused on critiquing all the players, telling them what made them poor players. It might be true to say that Alabi couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo but how much good is it going to do his confidence to tell him that straight to his face? Do you think he would now be more likely to score? Ling had it right that if you want to see the best of people then you need to give them confidence, show some belief in them and focus on their strengths. The time to help them with their weaknesses is when you've won their trust and they're playing well. In times of crisis you focus on strengths, in times of success you try to gain an extra advantage by working on your weaknesses.

The third factor was mentioned by Ling & Kent. It was that Fletcher did not understand how League 2 clubs work. Fletcher didn't consider that there are cycles that clubs at this level work to. You generally have half to a third of your squad out of contract every year. That way you never have to do a full rebuild. You generally won't be able to sell the players you don't want because there won't be any takers willing to pay. Clubs wait for players' contracts to expire. That means you have to plan your transfer activity accordingly. Fletcher wanted Ling & Kent to get rid of players who had 18 months left on their contracts. Its just not realistic. No one is going to pay for them and there's no way the club could pay them all off. Its totally unrealistic. Fletcher failed, once again, to take a short, medium and long term view.

His final mistake was in trying to implement a drastically different playing style, based around probing possession and aggressive counter pressing. Now, that's a lot to ask of League Two players at the best of times but to try to do it on day one is patently absurd. Instead of realising that he wanted the impossible he tried to change the players through an aggressive mid-season pre-season and transfer list those he deemed unsuitable to his plans. That is not how football management works.

He should have known all of this. He should gone in, assessed his squad, worked out how to get the best out of them. Then he should have made a not of the 1/3rd of his squad that were out of contract and decided who was staying and who was going. From there you can plan on who to recruit in January and in the summer to replace them, ideally with players that are a bit more suitable to the long term plan. These are things every coach knows, or at least I thought they did, because its all part of your coaching badges.

Whilst I agree with all of this, aren't these the sort of things that should come up in the interview process? Shouldn't they be testing for awareness of such realities and if the applicant isn't aware, informing them and asking them how they adapt accordingly? Asking a manager what their short medium and long term plans would be would seem like the basic question possible.

I am completely baffled on how they could have got the appointment so wrong on so many fronts. Everything that is coming out about why he didn't fit should have been identified as the shortlisting stage.