Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:45 am

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:53 pm Nobody can pinpoint what our 'culture' is.

Every club has it's own culture and regardless of what you think of our culture, you're part of it.

It's why you choose to post on this message board and comment on Orient rather than go on a Millwall message board and comment on them.

You are what makes us unique.

If you identified with another club you wouldn't be here. That's what our culture is.

Talking of cultures and what fits. I just read on Facebook that people fancy Neil Harris. That doesn't fit.

Steve Evan's, Westley, Martin Allen. They don't fit. We ain't that type of club.

Personally, I would disagree with you about Neil Harris. Assuming “ the model” is largely based upon JE then he would seem to me to have many of the same attributes and traits. I appreciate though that the financial side of the equation and other opportunities available to him would likely rule this out.

All this talk of ‘culture’ is bollocks.

.

Beradogs wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:08 am I think Tent has just inadvertently nailed it. We ain’t the type of club for a manager like Martin Allen or Joey Barton, even Lee Boyer or Roy Keane (if we had pots of money). Dare I say it, we wouldn’t be the type of club for a manager like Alex Ferguson. Depends which way you look at it. Me, I would happily throw every principle I have out the window if it meant winning games and getting back to be a championship club as we were in the 70’s. I am getting older and at this rate, it ain’t ever going to happen in my lifetime. Others- perhaps too many, love the family club thing, a place to meet friends, and generally spend a few hours smiling (mostly at how bad we are). Thing is. Whatever way we think, it is the job of the management to be in camp one and not camp two. Football is a results business. Over the years our management have covered up not being winners by constantly referring to the ethos of the club (surely every club has principles and inclusivity). Worryingly, that is just getting worse and not better. It’s constant now. Even Hearn seemed happy to use it for our failings. Our postcode and the explosion of London as a global city in 25 years and we have gone sideways/backwards. That isn’t right. I sometimes think it would have been interesting to see if Eddie had taken over from Barry. He would have given the place a shake.

B ecchetti gave us a shake ,trying to buy success with no management structure. That shake very near killed us

Culture exists within business. Not grasping what it is or saying it’s bolox don’t change that. Compare the difference between the Bechetti style of management and the Travis and Teague style. The most obvious example of a culture being created by the owners. If you can see the difference between the two styles, you are looking at culture.

I understand people not grasping the Unique tag. That’s a comment personal to Travis based on his personal experiences.

As for Bournemouth fans comments, fair play. They are defending one of their own. It also gives them a chance to Lord it over a club once bigger than them. I just hope that good will extends to the club and they take him on again. That will be the true measure of how he is rated.

I see no reason why Orient employees would have an agenda. Had Ross been told to step down then perhaps I could understand the resentment but it was his choice. So why have anything against a new manager. Square peg in a round hole. A comment I made when it happened and a comment also made on the Bournemouth comments. It was just a bad fit that wasn’t identified when it should have been.

I see Travis mentioned a new guy would fly to Boston for a chat, maybe involve selected fans. That tells me Ling is not to be fully trusted when judging good culture fit, ok with the football stuff but perhaps lacking elsewhere. A lesson learned.

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:45 am

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:53 pm Nobody can pinpoint what our 'culture' is.

Every club has it's own culture and regardless of what you think of our culture, you're part of it.

It's why you choose to post on this message board and comment on Orient rather than go on a Millwall message board and comment on them.

You are what makes us unique.

If you identified with another club you wouldn't be here. That's what our culture is.

Talking of cultures and what fits. I just read on Facebook that people fancy Neil Harris. That doesn't fit.

Steve Evan's, Westley, Martin Allen. They don't fit. We ain't that type of club.

Therein lies the problem and it's one I've debated numerous times on the social media sites. There are far too many at the club who actually don't care about the football side, they're as happy in NL as they are in L1 as long as the players smile for selfies and come up to the Gallery at the end of the game. That's all the "family club" waffle.

As I said to Kent on Twitter when he put those cryptic Q&A tweets out pre-season I want to see a successful club. I care not if we do that through fair means or foul. Some even decry the the likes of Cox or Brophy taking a dive to win a penalty, or Turley cleaning out a player to take a tactical booking because it's not "the Orient way"

Justin was a master of keeping both sides happy, he not only presented a warm friendly persona but had the ruthless winning mentality to get the job done on the pitch too. That time he talked about "controlled aggression" showed he knew what was needed to match opposition with a tougher culture than ourselves. Trouble is I think he was a one-off fit for us and trying to replicate that is going to lead to more Fletcher scenarios.

Club is probably hoping Ross & co can jammy a few results to get us away from the bottom and give the job to them permanently as the cheap and "Orient" way out of the situation. Today's game will be an interesting watch in many ways.

Beradogs wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:05 am If I run a PLC selling Lawnmowers and sit in front of my shareholders I am not going to start talking about the ethos of the company or I might. But only for a minute or two. If I waffle on about Maude the tea lady getting a pay rise because her jammy dodgers are so good and she had been with the company 30 years and that’s what makes us special etc the shareholders will say cool story. How many mowers you sold and what’s our dividend. Kent is a businessman, he knows this. So why was Fletcher sacked after 5 games. If it was results. Say results although 5 games is ridiculous to judge. If it was (as suggested by Ling) that he didn’t fit in with the ethos of the club. What on earth does that even mean? What did he do, make joke fart noises when the players sat down for breakfast? What? Not saying fletcher was good. He came across terribly but he was interviewed so it wouldn’t be his personality they didn’t like. 5 games is not enough so what is it? Perhaps he was already asking for more autonomy and Ling felt threatened.

Can I get a discount on a Honda sit on lawnmower please? Will you also be shipping it free or is there a postage charge attached to the delivery? Thanks for a prompt response as my grass needs a cut.

gshaw wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:07 am

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:45 am

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:53 pm Nobody can pinpoint what our 'culture' is.

Every club has it's own culture and regardless of what you think of our culture, you're part of it.

It's why you choose to post on this message board and comment on Orient rather than go on a Millwall message board and comment on them.

You are what makes us unique.

If you identified with another club you wouldn't be here. That's what our culture is.

Talking of cultures and what fits. I just read on Facebook that people fancy Neil Harris. That doesn't fit.

Steve Evan's, Westley, Martin Allen. They don't fit. We ain't that type of club.

Therein lies the problem and it's one I've debated numerous times on the social media sites. There are far too many at the club who actually don't care about the football side, they're as happy in NL as they are in L1 as long as the players smile for selfies and come up to the Gallery at the end of the game. That's all the "family club" waffle.

As I said to Kent on Twitter when he put those cryptic Q&A tweets out pre-season I want to see a successful club. I care not if we do that through fair means or foul. Some even decry the the likes of Cox or Brophy taking a dive to win a penalty, or Turley cleaning out a player to take a tactical booking because it's not "the Orient way"

Justin was a master of keeping both sides happy, he not only presented a warm friendly persona but had the ruthless winning mentality to get the job done on the pitch too. That time he talked about "controlled aggression" showed he knew what was needed to match opposition with a tougher culture than ourselves. Trouble is I think he was a one-off fit for us and trying to replicate that is going to lead to more Fletcher scenarios.

Club is probably hoping Ross & co can jammy a few results to get us away from the bottom and give the job to them permanently as the cheap and "Orient" way out of the situation. Today's game will be an interesting watch in many ways.

Out of interest, would you like to see the O's in the Premier League (yeah I know..)?

Personally I'd love Orient to get to top of league one (like under Slade) / mid championship (which has never happened in my lifetime).

I just don't think I'd enjoy being a top of Championship/ Premier League whipping team.

I still don't get the cheap jibe bit. If after what has happened in the last 29 days you still feel the club is being run on the cheap then I don't think you'll ever be convinced otherwise.

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:01 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:07 am

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:45 am

Talking of cultures and what fits. I just read on Facebook that people fancy Neil Harris. That doesn't fit.

Steve Evan's, Westley, Martin Allen. They don't fit. We ain't that type of club.

Therein lies the problem and it's one I've debated numerous times on the social media sites. There are far too many at the club who actually don't care about the football side, they're as happy in NL as they are in L1 as long as the players smile for selfies and come up to the Gallery at the end of the game. That's all the "family club" waffle.

As I said to Kent on Twitter when he put those cryptic Q&A tweets out pre-season I want to see a successful club. I care not if we do that through fair means or foul. Some even decry the the likes of Cox or Brophy taking a dive to win a penalty, or Turley cleaning out a player to take a tactical booking because it's not "the Orient way"

Justin was a master of keeping both sides happy, he not only presented a warm friendly persona but had the ruthless winning mentality to get the job done on the pitch too. That time he talked about "controlled aggression" showed he knew what was needed to match opposition with a tougher culture than ourselves. Trouble is I think he was a one-off fit for us and trying to replicate that is going to lead to more Fletcher scenarios.

Club is probably hoping Ross & co can jammy a few results to get us away from the bottom and give the job to them permanently as the cheap and "Orient" way out of the situation. Today's game will be an interesting watch in many ways.

Out of interest, would you like to see the O's in the Premier League (yeah I know..)?

Personally I'd love Orient to get to top of league one (like under Slade) / mid championship (which has never happened in my lifetime).

I just don't think I'd enjoy being a top of Championship/ Premier League whipping team.

Are Bournemouth whipping boys ?

Sunderland in there 50,000+ all seater stadium
Might have been once .

To compare us to Bournemouth is ridiculous.

Ling in his silly q and a session dismissed Daryl McMahon because he had one good season with Ebbsfleet when they outspent everyone else.

But we should admire Eddie Howe and Bournemouth because they've been financially doped beyond belief for the last decade.

We need to get our hymn sheet in order and start singing from it collectively.

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:42 am To compare us to Bournemouth is ridiculous.

Ling in his silly q and a session dismissed Daryl McMahon because he had one good season with Ebbsfleet when they outspent everyone else.

But we should admire Eddie Howe and Bournemouth because they've been financially doped beyond belief for the last decade.

We need to get our hymn sheet in order and start singing from it collectively.

He compared Macmahons Football league Experience with Ross Embletons Football
League Experience Ross was caretaker after Davis left remember .
Therefore far more experienced
Remember also Ross was still dealing with a club reeling from the death of its main man.
Something Macmahon wasnt.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kenton ... ay-198100/

Story about ebbsfleet players talking about the clubs financial difficulties.
Lot of good Macmahon did there eh .
He hasnt ruled him out for the future.

Eddie howe has kept Bournemouth in the premier league comfortably.
So every season they get what
Another £150 million from tv deals etc.

Wake up to reality.

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:34 am Bournemouth were a club lower than orient for decades
From memory was it not when they had Ted Mac / Phil Bowyer and then Harry as manager they then took off or maybe when the Russian money turned up a decade or two later

Russian money? Is that all in that dossier that Boris and his fellow lying cronies refuse to publish before the election?

Yes it is dis that’s why Boris won’t release it for fear of the orient message board going into meltdown.

DMC would be a disaster if he came here in my opinion. Whilst he’s an old player he should stay that way.

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:03 am I still don't get the cheap jibe bit. If after what has happened in the last 29 days you still feel the club is being run on the cheap then I don't think you'll ever be convinced otherwise.

The cheap jibe is lack of investment in the squad. The depth and quality isn't up to it for L2 - that was obvious at start of the season (goalkeeper backup, midfield, striker etc). Marsh is a cheap option in CM where you need a strong pro, again it shows as the management don't even want to play him.

Blowing plenty of money off-the-field for sure but seems there's no consequence to that for those making the mistakes.

Yes L1 / Championship would be good, having a good go at the FA Cup etc. Certainly not being a bottom half L2 side struggling for survival.

Trouble for us going any higher than L1 is income because if the restricted ground capacity. Got Hearn to thank for that.

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:37 am

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:03 am I still don't get the cheap jibe bit. If after what has happened in the last 29 days you still feel the club is being run on the cheap then I don't think you'll ever be convinced otherwise.

The cheap jibe is lack of investment in the squad. The depth and quality isn't up to it for L2 - that was obvious at start of the season (goalkeeper backup, midfield, striker etc). Marsh is a cheap option in CM where you need a strong pro, again it shows as the management don't even want to play him.

Looking at the Q&A with Ling and Travis, both seem to think that the squad is capable of making a play off push - Kent Teague has implied that elsewhere with his points target for the season. Fletcher came in, gave a list of people who in his view weren't good enough, and Ling + Travis were shocked by some of the players he'd said. I don't think we're being cheap, but I do think we've misjudged, and are still misjudging, the step up in quality to League Two and the quality of our squad.

Mr. Peanutbutter wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:03 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:37 am

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:03 am I still don't get the cheap jibe bit. If after what has happened in the last 29 days you still feel the club is being run on the cheap then I don't think you'll ever be convinced otherwise.

The cheap jibe is lack of investment in the squad. The depth and quality isn't up to it for L2 - that was obvious at start of the season (goalkeeper backup, midfield, striker etc). Marsh is a cheap option in CM where you need a strong pro, again it shows as the management don't even want to play him.

Looking at the Q&A with Ling and Travis, both seem to think that the squad is capable of making a play off push - Kent Teague has implied that elsewhere with his points target for the season. Fletcher came in, gave a list of people who in his view weren't good enough, and Ling + Travis were shocked by some of the players he'd said. I don't think we're being cheap, but I do think we've misjudged, and are still misjudging, the step up in quality to League Two and the quality of our squad.

Ling has made that exact mistake in the past and made it again this year. Hearing Embleton saying he was surprised by the step up shows he's not good enough to be in the manager role.

Teague is taking an emotional view of the squad rather than a pragmatic football one. Our CM would struggle in NL let alone L2. If he thinks our striking options are play-off quality he needs to go back to the drawing board and watch a bit more football from L1 / L2.

Personally I'd say 4 minimum replacements rather than 7 but if you want a squad with depth Fletcher isn't far wrong...

GK
RB
CM
ST

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:26 am

Mr. Peanutbutter wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:03 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:37 am

The cheap jibe is lack of investment in the squad. The depth and quality isn't up to it for L2 - that was obvious at start of the season (goalkeeper backup, midfield, striker etc). Marsh is a cheap option in CM where you need a strong pro, again it shows as the management don't even want to play him.

Looking at the Q&A with Ling and Travis, both seem to think that the squad is capable of making a play off push - Kent Teague has implied that elsewhere with his points target for the season. Fletcher came in, gave a list of people who in his view weren't good enough, and Ling + Travis were shocked by some of the players he'd said. I don't think we're being cheap, but I do think we've misjudged, and are still misjudging, the step up in quality to League Two and the quality of our squad.

Ling has made that exact mistake in the past and made it again this year. Hearing Embleton saying he was surprised by the step up shows he's not good enough to be in the manager role.

Teague is taking an emotional view of the squad rather than a pragmatic football one. Our CM would struggle in NL let alone L2. If he thinks our striking options are play-off quality he needs to go back to the drawing board and watch a bit more football from L1 / L2.

TBF, Teague knows nothing about football, so emotion is all he has.

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:37 am

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:03 am I still don't get the cheap jibe bit. If after what has happened in the last 29 days you still feel the club is being run on the cheap then I don't think you'll ever be convinced otherwise.

The cheap jibe is lack of investment in the squad. The depth and quality isn't up to it for L2 - that was obvious at start of the season (goalkeeper backup, midfield, striker etc). Marsh is a cheap option in CM where you need a strong pro, again it shows as the management don't even want to play him.

Blowing plenty of money off-the-field for sure but seems there's no consequence to that for those making the mistakes.

Yes L1 / Championship would be good, having a good go at the FA Cup etc. Certainly not being a bottom half L2 side struggling for survival.

Trouble for us going any higher than L1 is income because if the restricted ground capacity. Got Hearn to thank for that.

I think it was more misjudgment with contracts and in the transfer market than anything done on the cheap. Haven't got anything to prove it though.

When Justin passed we were quite transitional and maybe a lot more was put into continuity than needed to be.

We'll never know.

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:42 am To compare us to Bournemouth is ridiculous.

Ling in his silly q and a session dismissed Daryl McMahon because he had one good season with Ebbsfleet when they outspent everyone else.

But we should admire Eddie Howe and Bournemouth because they've been financially doped beyond belief for the last decade.

We need to get our hymn sheet in order and start singing from it collectively.

An excellent observation.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:28 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:26 am

Mr. Peanutbutter wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:03 am

Looking at the Q&A with Ling and Travis, both seem to think that the squad is capable of making a play off push - Kent Teague has implied that elsewhere with his points target for the season. Fletcher came in, gave a list of people who in his view weren't good enough, and Ling + Travis were shocked by some of the players he'd said. I don't think we're being cheap, but I do think we've misjudged, and are still misjudging, the step up in quality to League Two and the quality of our squad.

Ling has made that exact mistake in the past and made it again this year. Hearing Embleton saying he was surprised by the step up shows he's not good enough to be in the manager role.

Teague is taking an emotional view of the squad rather than a pragmatic football one. Our CM would struggle in NL let alone L2. If he thinks our striking options are play-off quality he needs to go back to the drawing board and watch a bit more football from L1 / L2.

TBF, Teague knows nothing about football, so emotion is all he has.

Teague know nothing about football beyond the balance sheet. The emotional attachment has to be earned and he has not paid his dues in that aspect.

He wants. Successful club. What is a successful club. To us fans in working our way up the ladder, to a bean counter it’s making a profit. So what sort of success does he want?

As an owner you don't always need to know everything about everything, what you do is ensure that the right people of the right quality are in the right positions.

We had the right person in Justin. We've made errors since and its fundamental that the next manager is the right person and not the cheap person.

Thor wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:18 pm As an owner you don't always need to know everything about everything, what you do is ensure that the right people of the right quality are in the right positions.

We had the right person in Justin. We've made errors since and its fundamental that the next manager is the right person and not the cheap person.

And of course the right person has to be an experienced and a proven Manager at this Level otherwise it’s meaningless.

Thor wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:18 pm As an owner you don't always need to know everything about everything, what you do is ensure that the right people of the right quality are in the right positions.

We had the right person in Justin. We've made errors since and its fundamental that the next manager is the right person and not the cheap person.

It's Embleton. That much was obvious from yesterday. The only way it won't be is if we get relegated, at which point the fan anger towards him would be so brutal the post would be untenable.

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:24 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:18 pm As an owner you don't always need to know everything about everything, what you do is ensure that the right people of the right quality are in the right positions.

We had the right person in Justin. We've made errors since and its fundamental that the next manager is the right person and not the cheap person.

It's Embleton. That much was obvious from yesterday. The only way it won't be is if we get relegated, at which point the fan anger towards him would be so brutal the post would be untenable.

So the endless madness continues, with no lessons learnt !