Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Red_Army wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:55 pm

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:54 pm We’re playing narrow because of our fragility in the centre of midfield. Solve that and we can go back to having some width. This isn’t complex stuff.

We're currently playing with two central midfielders. Kf we went to 442 we would be playing with two central midfielders.

Anyway, my point still stands. A 'ball winner' wouldn't have helped us to score yesterday as there wasn'tmuch ball to be won. Clay and Wright could have played in a 442.

With 5-3-2 and our existing personnel, there is huge pressure on Maguire Drew (or Brophy yesterday) to create something. Our wing backs won’t. Nor will our midfield pairing of Wright and Clay, when Wright is having to sit so deep to cover Clay.

If we get someone like Ebou in to do that role, we can go back to 4-4-2. That will result in 2 wingers plus allow Wright more opportunity to go and play.

That’s how a ball winning CM will make us more creative.

Let’s hope that whoever it is that ends up coming in, they are not battling it out with Gorman to be third or fourth choice. We need someone who can challenge Clay & Wright for the starting roles.

redintheface wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:49 pm Let’s hope that whoever it is that ends up coming in, they are not battling it out with Gorman to be third or fourth choice. We need someone who can challenge Clay & Wright for the starting roles.

Spot on.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:34 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:55 pm

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:54 pm We’re playing narrow because of our fragility in the centre of midfield. Solve that and we can go back to having some width. This isn’t complex stuff.

We're currently playing with two central midfielders. Kf we went to 442 we would be playing with two central midfielders.

Anyway, my point still stands. A 'ball winner' wouldn't have helped us to score yesterday as there wasn'tmuch ball to be won. Clay and Wright could have played in a 442.

With 5-3-2 and our existing personnel, there is huge pressure on Maguire Drew (or Brophy yesterday) to create something. Our wing backs won’t. Nor will our midfield pairing of Wright and Clay, when Wright is having to sit so deep to cover Clay.

If we get someone like Ebou in to do that role, we can go back to 4-4-2. That will result in 2 wingers plus allow Wright more opportunity to go and play.

That’s how a ball winning CM will make us more creative.

I get what your saying, but when we already had 67% possession, we wouldn't need such a player, and could play that shape with existing personnel. If anything, it is an argument for a more 'creative' player in this position.

It's all about quality of chances though, innit. With a defensive midfielder we could have put Brophy at left wing back and pushed him and Ling further forward. That then pulls men wide to track them and creates a bit more space in the middle for the forwards.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:51 pm It's all about quality of chances though, innit. With a defensive midfielder we could have put Brophy at left wing back and pushed him and Ling further forward. That then pulls men wide to track them and creates a bit more space in the middle for the forwards.

Again that may well be true, but in a game we dominated there's no reason we couldn't have done that with current personnel.

We dominated possession but we didn’t particularly look dangerous.

The point is, when teams like Stevenage come for a point, sit deep and pack midfield it’s hard to break them down when you have little threat out wide. They can just sit in the middle, leave no space for our creative players and nullify our threat.

Move to a formation where we have proper wingers and a proper midfield that you don’t worry is exposed without an extra defender and you become more dangerous.

Well that’s the theory anyway.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:04 pm We dominated possession but we didn’t particularly look dangerous.

The point is, when teams like Stevenage come for a point, sit deep and pack midfield it’s hard to break them down when you have little threat out wide. They can just sit in the middle, leave no space for our creative players and nullify our threat.

Move to a formation where we have proper wingers and a proper midfield that you don’t worry is exposed without an extra defender and you become more dangerous.

Well that’s the theory anyway.

But why would we need a 'ball winner' to do this?

Because it allows us to go back to 4-4-2 and have more creative players on the pitch.

The alternative approach is to stick with 3-5-2 and put Brophy at left wing back and bring in a new right wing back, one that can attack.

Actually, even then we’re still limited. It all comes down to Clay not being good enough on the ball. Sorry, I’ve said it.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:15 pm Because it allows us to go back to 4-4-2 and have more creative players on the pitch.

The alternative approach is to stick with 3-5-2 and put Brophy at left wing back and bring in a new right wing back, one that can attack.

I'd dig that. But if so I think it means the end of Judd, so we need to accept that this would happen. If we get a quality upgrade then I'm ok with that.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:15 pm Because it allows us to go back to 4-4-2 and have more creative players on the pitch.

The alternative approach is to stick with 3-5-2 and put Brophy at left wing back and bring in a new right wing back, one that can attack.

We can play 442 with current personnel. A 'ball winner ' does nothing to change that.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:18 pm Actually, even then we’re still limited. It all comes down to Clay not being good enough on the ball. Sorry, I’ve said it.

So you're not talking about a 'ball winner' at all then?

So who do we drop? Name names.

442 with Happe losing out? Not too sure he deserves that. Or Marv maybe.
352 with Clay getting the elbow?
352 with Brophy or Wright out
Maybe Widdowson with Brophy covering

So who will get the chop?

Semantics, really.

Deep down I think everyone can visualise what is required, and Justin even touched on it last season after getting knocked out against Maidstone, we need some directness in the build-up, someone who can actually drive forward with some pace. Wright isn't that type of player, neither is Clay although they can be told to try it.

Getting in extra creativity is not going to cut it unless he is a big improvement. We have three players for the advanced midfield slot, Brophy, JMD and Gorman behind them. I don't see another player of this type coming in.

Winning a turnover in midfield and moving quickly allows the option of a more direct attack, instead of waiting around for the rest of the team to catch up.

I'd expect us to be defending quite a lot against Mansfield, but when the ball does break we are quite an ineffectual counter-attacking side because out of the wing-backs and midfield players only one has any real pace. It seems to me we will find it hard to create chances against sides like this aside from set pieces like what happened against Plymouth. Player for player I don't think they are that much better than us, I reckon we shade it in keeper, centre-back, centre-forwards, they have the rest.

Red_Army wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:46 pm

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:15 pm Because it allows us to go back to 4-4-2 and have more creative players on the pitch.

The alternative approach is to stick with 3-5-2 and put Brophy at left wing back and bring in a new right wing back, one that can attack.

We can play 442 with current personnel. A 'ball winner ' does nothing to change that.

We can’t play 4-4-2 with current personnel, that’s the problem. Just as it was the problem last season. Clay and Wright aren’t strong enough as a pairing, so we need the extra man centrally to give them a hand. Just as Clay and Lee, and Clay and Lawless, and Clay and Jobi etc weren’t strong enough.

I’m noticing a trend here.

Red_Army wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:47 pm

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:18 pm Actually, even then we’re still limited. It all comes down to Clay not being good enough on the ball. Sorry, I’ve said it.

So you're not talking about a 'ball winner' at all then?

Eh? A ball winner is definitely what I’m talking about.

Whatever type of midfielder - defensive, ball - winner, creative, box to box, etc, etc is on the radar the bloke has to be able to get those around him to play at a higher tempo than we do now. The whole set up is too ponderous and allows the opposition to set up against us.

We all know what we need but who gets dropped as a consequence of a new midfielder coming in? Whilst nobody has been exceptional none have been the standout weak link either.

My choice, probably at home, would be 442 with Happe being the unlucky man. Away, for now, I’d stick with 352 and drop, er?

Steve Dawson would be good if he still has the legs

Certainly sounds like he doesn’t have much future at Bury
https://talksport.com/football/efl/5882 ... n-bust-up/

I`d rather have Alex Woodyard.

https://the72.co.uk/142789/darren-fergu ... -to-leave/

So would I tbh.

Whoever it is, one player is not going to suddenly make this team tick. A good midfielder, of course, would make a difference, but there are many other things to address in this side. In my opinion.

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:24 am Whoever it is, one player is not going to suddenly make this team tick. A good midfielder, of course, would make a difference, but there are many other things to address in this side. In my opinion.

Of course, CCH but the right player in that position would be a good start and sort out what seems to be the most obvious flaw.