Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Did any of the players coming in make a case for themselves tonight? How did Gorman and Dennis do?

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:00 pm

Reflecto wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:43 pm Eat the rich - spot on analysis!

Yup. But do we have the players in the squad fit enough to change things round? No effective replacement for Jobi and in Dayton we have to wait weeks just to see if he can perform like before. And where is Turley? Dennis is not fit.

I fear we may stick with 532 because we lack other viable options right now.

But 532 is not proving a viable option because we don't ave the players to play the system. In part its why people call out for Judd over Ling, because at least he tries to play the wing back role.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:00 pm

Reflecto wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:43 pm Eat the rich - spot on analysis!

Yup. But do we have the players in the squad fit enough to change things round? No effective replacement for Jobi and in Dayton we have to wait weeks just to see if he can perform like before. And where is Turley? Dennis is not fit.

I fear we may stick with 532 because we lack other viable options right now.

This is an area in which Brophy frustrates me. He should be perfect for progressing the ball but he doesn't. He wants to be fed in tight spaces and wriggle free like an attacking winger. That doesn't help us. We need him to be our transition from defence to attack. We need him making himself available to the centre backs and and deep lying midfielder and receiving the ball and galloping forward, which would enable everyone else to step up around him.

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:41 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:26 pm

Stamford O wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:24 pm One goal in last 6 games

Why are we creating so little. ?

Negative formation produces negative performances. Was fine for the tail end of last season when it was all about protecting what we had and getting over the line but no good now.

Not bothered about this game in the slightest, should've played even more fringe and youth players. Get knocked out the other pointless competition early then focus on league and FA Cup.

3-5-2 is far from a negative formation if it is played properly. It's the tactics that are deployed within the formation that are negative.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:22 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:41 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:26 pm

Why are we creating so little. ?

Negative formation produces negative performances. Was fine for the tail end of last season when it was all about protecting what we had and getting over the line but no good now.

Not bothered about this game in the slightest, should've played even more fringe and youth players. Get knocked out the other pointless competition early then focus on league and FA Cup.

3-5-2 is far from a negative formation if it is played properly. It's the tactics that are deployed within the formation that are negative.

As you say, nothing wrong with three at the back but you need outer centre backs capable and willing of starting the moves. You need fullbacks willing and capable of providing the width and you need a midfield three with complementary attributes and styles. We don't have any of that. Ling, Widdowson and Judd are fullbacks all day long, not wingbacks. Are any of our central defenders comfortable enough on the ball to be stepping out, drifting wide and pinging the ball about? I don't think so. What of our midfielders? Craig Clay is a metronome type player, gets it, gives it, finds space to get it again. Doesn't bomb forward, doesn't have an expansive passing game, is decent at his defensive duties. Josh Wright is another simple passer. Doesn't get up and down, doesn't take the ball and run with it, is decent at his defensive duties. Dale Gorman is supposed to be the more attacking of the bunch, moving into the channels, playing one-twos, supporting in the final third and taking shots but we've seen precious little of that since he signed. They're all much of a muchness and that is no good. You need variety.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:22 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:41 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:26 pm

Why are we creating so little. ?

Negative formation produces negative performances. Was fine for the tail end of last season when it was all about protecting what we had and getting over the line but no good now.

Not bothered about this game in the slightest, should've played even more fringe and youth players. Get knocked out the other pointless competition early then focus on league and FA Cup.

3-5-2 is far from a negative formation if it is played properly. It's the tactics that are deployed within the formation that are negative.

Ours seems more of a 5-3-2 with everyone on hand at the back and very little going forward. Even in the Cheltenham game until we had the goal the CMs were often looking for a pass but there was nothing out wide for them.

Thought Ross may have tried out 4-4-2 tonight, these low priority competitions are best time to test things out.

Eat The Rich wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:38 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:26 pm

Stamford O wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:24 pm One goal in last 6 games

Why are we creating so little. ?

Huge question. You could talk about the individuals that are missing like Koroma with his ability to produce a piece of magic and open up games just by taking up dangerous positions which made space for others. You could talk about the wise old heads of Jobi or Dayton who maybe weren't orthodox wingers but they helped make us tick in a way Brophy and JMD just can't. The tactical side needs looking at as well. I've not been a fan of our 5-3-2. You either need very eager fullbacks or a ball carrier in midfield to progress play because if you don't you can struggle to move up the pitch. The beauty of the 5-3-2 is that you're outer centrebacks fulfill the fullbacks duties in starting the play so you lose nothing there but you get that extra body in midfield. Our 5-3-2 does none of that. It plays out like a stodgy flat back 5 with the fullbacks doing the same job they were doing before, a midfielder sacrificed for an extra centre back and a very lightweight midfield that receives the ball and has nowhere to go.

The 5-3-2 system was used to account for the shortcomings of the players we had last year especially in midfield. It was fine in the NL but won't work in L2 because ultimately we have the wrong players.

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:10 pm Did any of the players coming in make a case for themselves tonight? How did Gorman and Dennis do?

Gorman was ok - similar to last season. Sloppy on the ball but does put his foot in and run about.

Dennis did absolutely nothing.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:45 pm

Eat The Rich wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:38 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:26 pm

Why are we creating so little. ?

Huge question. You could talk about the individuals that are missing like Koroma with his ability to produce a piece of magic and open up games just by taking up dangerous positions which made space for others. You could talk about the wise old heads of Jobi or Dayton who maybe weren't orthodox wingers but they helped make us tick in a way Brophy and JMD just can't. The tactical side needs looking at as well. I've not been a fan of our 5-3-2. You either need very eager fullbacks or a ball carrier in midfield to progress play because if you don't you can struggle to move up the pitch. The beauty of the 5-3-2 is that you're outer centrebacks fulfill the fullbacks duties in starting the play so you lose nothing there but you get that extra body in midfield. Our 5-3-2 does none of that. It plays out like a stodgy flat back 5 with the fullbacks doing the same job they were doing before, a midfielder sacrificed for an extra centre back and a very lightweight midfield that receives the ball and has nowhere to go.

The 5-3-2 system was used to account for the shortcomings of the players we had last year especially in midfield. It was fine in the NL but won't work in L2 because ultimately we have the wrong players.

When you have a front two as good as Bonne and Koroma were, you can get away with a lack of creativity, just leave them two to get on with things on their own. It ain't going to work this season.

Eat The Rich wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:30 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:22 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:41 pm

Negative formation produces negative performances. Was fine for the tail end of last season when it was all about protecting what we had and getting over the line but no good now.

Not bothered about this game in the slightest, should've played even more fringe and youth players. Get knocked out the other pointless competition early then focus on league and FA Cup.

3-5-2 is far from a negative formation if it is played properly. It's the tactics that are deployed within the formation that are negative.

As you say, nothing wrong with three at the back but you need outer centre backs capable and willing of starting the moves. You need fullbacks willing and capable of providing the width and you need a midfield three with complementary attributes and styles. We don't have any of that. Ling, Widdowson and Judd are fullbacks all day long, not wingbacks. Are any of our central defenders comfortable enough on the ball to be stepping out, drifting wide and pinging the ball about? I don't think so. What of our midfielders? Craig Clay is a metronome type player, gets it, gives it, finds space to get it again. Doesn't bomb forward, doesn't have an expansive passing game, is decent at his defensive duties. Josh Wright is another simple passer. Doesn't get up and down, doesn't take the ball and run with it, is decent at his defensive duties. Dale Gorman is supposed to be the more attacking of the bunch, moving into the channels, playing one-twos, supporting in the final third and taking shots but we've seen precious little of that since he signed. They're all much of a muchness and that is no good. You need variety.

Have to agree with your analysis.
Given we are very light on attacking threat and creativity from midfield we should be giving our wingers a run in the team.

I think all of our back 3 are comfortable enough on the ball to play football and step out with the ball, that's not the issue.

Eat The Rich wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:19 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:00 pm

Reflecto wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:43 pm Eat the rich - spot on analysis!

Yup. But do we have the players in the squad fit enough to change things round? No effective replacement for Jobi and in Dayton we have to wait weeks just to see if he can perform like before. And where is Turley? Dennis is not fit.

I fear we may stick with 532 because we lack other viable options right now.

This is an area in which Brophy frustrates me. He should be perfect for progressing the ball but he doesn't. He wants to be fed in tight spaces and wriggle free like an attacking winger. That doesn't help us. We need him to be our transition from defence to attack. We need him making himself available to the centre backs and and deep lying midfielder and receiving the ball and galloping forward, which would enable everyone else to step up around him.

Maybe that's because he is a winger?? What a pointless post

Just got back in as I live near Exeter.
It was an ineffective showing today. As others have commented, no width and Judd and Widowson are not wing backs, they might as well have not been on the pitch, ok a tad harsh but not so far off the truth, they did nothing wrong as such but not a lot right either.
We kept trying to play it through the middle and just ended up patting it around and passing back to Brill.
Midfield looks too light weight and samey.
My concern with RE is he did nothing to change it round, obvious by half time changes were needed and they didn’t seem fired up for the second half.
Positives, Angol looks very useful and give him some service and he could do well. Brophy at least offered something different when he came on.
Reinforcements needed, wing backs if were going to persist with 5 at the back and strengthen midfield.
RE needs to step up to the plate smartish. It’s early days but I want to see more tactical awareness from Ross and I want to believe he can motivate the team. The early signs are not encouraging but clearly he needs more time and support with further signings.
I also don’t think 5 at the back is going to work for us, it’s nit working now and probably needs changing. Crying out for width tonight.

Interesting comment on the Argyle fans site. Game report extract. “Leyton Orient were not at their best (or it will be a long season for them)

Sums it up really.

"What a pointless post"

What a pointless comment.

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:30 am i think sawyer played ?
He was classified on the board as too slow seasons ago
How was he last night - I be interested to know how a "better team" incorporated this player.

Sawyer did indeed play at LB.
He similar to when he was with us - steady, but unspectacular.
He was chastised on here for lack of pace, but in all honesty had a relatively easy time last night, as Judd (or anyone else) rarely got into wide positions down his side in all honesty..

Decent interview with Ross after the game. Honest about our situation and not creating too much playing 352. Spoke well.

Feels we were compact first half, defending OK. Get punished more for mistakes in L2. Different from NL, anybody who thinks NL is much the same as L2, I’m sure Ross will beg to differ. We are seeing already just how much better it is.

Teague wondered why the fuss about league football. Easy to see on the pitch. Let’s hope we consolidate in L2 this season or two before worrying about promotion.

Maybe players coming in if they are right for the club and fit the budget.

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:16 pm

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:30 am i think sawyer played ?
He was classified on the board as too slow seasons ago
How was he last night - I be interested to know how a "better team" incorporated this player.

Sawyer did indeed play at LB.
He similar to when he was with us - steady, but unspectacular.
He was chastised on here for lack of pace, but in all honesty had a relatively easy time last night, as Judd (or anyone else) rarely got into wide positions down his side in all honesty..

So Plymouth stuck to 4-4-2 against our 3-5-2? How did we cope with that?

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:42 pm
Get punished more for mistakes in L2. Different from NL, anybody who thinks NL is much the same as L2, I’m sure Ross will beg to differ. We are seeing already just how much better it is.

I really don't think there is that much of a difference between the 2 divisions.

The current team playing as it currently is would not be faring much better if we were in the division below.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:47 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:42 pm
Get punished more for mistakes in L2. Different from NL, anybody who thinks NL is much the same as L2, I’m sure Ross will beg to differ. We are seeing already just how much better it is.

I really don't think there is that much of a difference between the 2 divisions.

The current team playing as it currently is would not be faring much better if we were in the division below.

I agree with dOh. There is a big difference between NL and ELF league 2. Our players are not good enough......not all of them, but enough so that we'll struggle to cope. We need width, and a good CM

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:42 pm Decent interview with Ross after the game. Honest about our situation and not creating too much playing 352. Spoke well.

Feels we were compact first half, defending OK. Get punished more for mistakes in L2. Different from NL, anybody who thinks NL is much the same as L2, I’m sure Ross will beg to differ. We are seeing already just how much better it is.

Teague wondered why the fuss about league football. Easy to see on the pitch. Let’s hope we consolidate in L2 this season or two before worrying about promotion.

Maybe players coming in if they are right for the club and fit the budget.

If he knows 352 is not working, why play it.

Story of O wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:40 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:42 pm Decent interview with Ross after the game. Honest about our situation and not creating too much playing 352. Spoke well.

Feels we were compact first half, defending OK. Get punished more for mistakes in L2. Different from NL, anybody who thinks NL is much the same as L2, I’m sure Ross will beg to differ. We are seeing already just how much better it is.

Teague wondered why the fuss about league football. Easy to see on the pitch. Let’s hope we consolidate in L2 this season or two before worrying about promotion.

Maybe players coming in if they are right for the club and fit the budget.

If he knows 352 is not working, why play it.

They clearly don't think that we have any midfield combination that can play in a two, plus having no faith in the currently available wingers and lastly the struggle to keep club captain Josh Coulson and top prospects Big Marv and Dan Happe in the first XI. Its not good and shows pretty poor planning on our part. Sure, we had a truly shocking setback in the summer but these kinds of discussions were definitely going on in the final months of last season and should have seen us identifying our problems. We seem to have gone into this massive season totally at sixes and sevens.

Why do we need to keep certain players in the team when it is not working. Having said that we had 3 good centre backs in 13/14 and played Cuthbert at right back. That worked as he had a good winger in front of him, so he did not need to venture forward much.

Story of O wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:40 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:42 pm Decent interview with Ross after the game. Honest about our situation and not creating too much playing 352. Spoke well.

Feels we were compact first half, defending OK. Get punished more for mistakes in L2. Different from NL, anybody who thinks NL is much the same as L2, I’m sure Ross will beg to differ. We are seeing already just how much better it is.

Teague wondered why the fuss about league football. Easy to see on the pitch. Let’s hope we consolidate in L2 this season or two before worrying about promotion.

Maybe players coming in if they are right for the club and fit the budget.

If he knows 352 is not working, why play it.

That struck me too. He suggested the game was a “free hit”. And it was. A chance to try something different. Ok, as expected a few players got a run out and that was expected, but why persist with 352 when clearly we don’t have wing backs able to be effective in that system. We all know that. Personally I hoped Judd would step up but clearly not.

He Is building the team around Happe, Coulson and Ekpiteta so 352 with those is about the only option. Can’t see any of those three being dropped to facilitate 442. So 352 it is.

Put into perspective, we went 20 games last season before conceding 3 in a match and at no time did we concede a total of 5 in two consecutive games. So it ain’t working at the moment for us.

That don’t mean it can’t. The signs ain’t good. I just hope Ling and Widdowson up their game in their new roles or we are in deep sh*t.

I fear we will become a one trick pony and easy for teams to set up against us. Saturday is a great chance to develop our game, we shall see.

Even with a flat back five we're still conceding lots of goals. Part of that will be that we invite pressure on ourselves by surrendering possession in midfield constantly but still it needs looking at, especially as the goals aren't mostly coming from outside the box. They're being conceded from close range, where we have three, THREE, defenders.

Ross needs to make the big call. Its easier to drop an excellent defender than it is to replace all of our fullbacks.

We could even play a diamond or variation thereof with Big Marv playing as the base. No need for wingers in that system. Yes, the fullbacks need to get forward but the central midfielders can more easily drift into the channels to support because they have the security of the defensive midfielder.