Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:09 am**

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:41 am
Adz wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:34 am Uncontrolled immigration is a disaster for everyone. We have the problem in Australia, where rent has gone up 30% in a year because of it. We cannot build sufficient housing and infrastructure to keep up with it, but the politicians on both sides love it as it increases their tax revenue. The government's around the world have basically been running a population ponzi scheme for the last 50 years
You genuinely believe all that, don’t you. f*cking hell .

Feel free to give your opinion on it

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:50 pm**

Adz wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:09 am
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:41 am
Adz wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:34 am Uncontrolled immigration is a disaster for everyone. We have the problem in Australia, where rent has gone up 30% in a year because of it. We cannot build sufficient housing and infrastructure to keep up with it, but the politicians on both sides love it as it increases their tax revenue. The government's around the world have basically been running a population ponzi scheme for the last 50 years
You genuinely believe all that, don’t you. f*cking hell .
Feel free to give your opinion on it

Uncontrolled immigration has nothing to do with the Qataris buying the area I live in and leaving the tax payer to pay £275m in the deal. It has nothing to do with the amount of new build properties across London being bought off plan by the middle east, Chinese and Russians to be left empty. It has nothing to do with my rent going up £750 in the space of 3 years. There are thousands of properties but they’re empty.

Its greed. Its capitalism. Its the Tories. Its the mindset that property is a source of income and not a home.

Stop blaming people and blame the root of the problem.

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:07 pm**

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:50 pm
Adz wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:09 am
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:41 am
You genuinely believe all that, don’t you. f*cking hell .
Feel free to give your opinion on it
Uncontrolled immigration has nothing to do with the Qataris buying the area I live in and leaving the tax payer to pay £275m in the deal. It has nothing to do with the amount of new build properties across London being bought off plan by the middle east, Chinese and Russians to be left empty. It has nothing to do with my rent going up £750 in the space of 3 years. There are thousands of properties but they’re empty.

Its greed. Its capitalism. Its the Tories. Its the mindset that property is a source of income and not a home.

Stop blaming people and blame the root of the problem.

It’s not so straightforward.

You’re right to call out all the other causes, however I’d argue that, here in the UK, the breaking of the link between average earnings and property prices (enabled by the financialisaton of homes) is a bigger contributor that what you have listed. But, while immigration is by no means the only (or possibly, main) contributor to unaffordable housing, the levels of immigration seen in the last few years will not be consequence-free either.

Immigrants tend to occupy the lowest value properties and in higher densities. In London in particular, this has created the conditions that have allowed HMOs to flourish. This means that a property that would previously have been the target for a basic family unit (think two adults with a kid or two) is now priced out of their reach as they cannot compete with multiples of single salaries. This has a ripple effect throughout and up and down the housing supply chain. And that’s before you get to the issue of unregulated HMOs, which under-funded local authorities are unable to effectively police.

If we stopped mass immigration, we would still have a housing crisis. But the levels of immigration are also making that crisis worse in a way that would still be noticeable without the other factors. Obviously, it’s important not to blame the immigrants themselves for that, as they are certainly easier targets than the international financial elite.

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:41 pm**

How difficult would it be for the Government to stop foreign nationals buying property in the UK? Lots of other Countries do this. Clearly, I mean where the property is not going to be their home. A law specifically designed to stop foreign investors buying property for profit.

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:41 pm**

In what way is immigration "uncontrolled" ? It's a word Farage and his ilk seem to like to use a lot, but as far as I can see immigration - other than the tiny proportion that is by way of "the boats" - is regulated and controlled. Am I missing something?

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:47 pm**

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:50 pm
Adz wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:09 am
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:41 am
You genuinely believe all that, don’t you. f*cking hell .
Feel free to give your opinion on it
Uncontrolled immigration has nothing to do with the Qataris buying the area I live in and leaving the tax payer to pay £275m in the deal. It has nothing to do with the amount of new build properties across London being bought off plan by the middle east, Chinese and Russians to be left empty. It has nothing to do with my rent going up £750 in the space of 3 years. There are thousands of properties but they’re empty.

Its greed. Its capitalism. Its the Tories. Its the mindset that property is a source of income and not a home.

Stop blaming people and blame the root of the problem.

You have just put a list of foreign investors to argue against it being foreigners causing a housing shortage.

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:48 pm**

StillSpike wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:41 pm In what way is immigration "uncontrolled" ? It's a word Farage and his ilk seem to like to use a lot, but as far as I can see immigration - other than the tiny proportion that is by way of "the boats" - is regulated and controlled. Am I missing something?

You're not missing anything. As I pointed out on the other Farage thread, current levels of immigration can be described as "mass", "unprecedented" and various other adjectives. But what they cannot be accurately described as is "uncontrolled".

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:41 pm ...it's worth pointing out that, aside from those arriving by dingy at Dover (which is a fraction of total net migration), migration levels in the UK are not uncontrolled. They are a deliberate consequence of policy and trade agreements arising post-Brexit. This is exactly what Brexit was always about.

I'm not saying that this applies to you, but anyone who voted for Brexit on the basis that it would result in reduced immigration levels has been taken for a mug.

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:53 pm**

BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:41 pm How difficult would it be for the Government to stop foreign nationals buying property in the UK? Lots of other Countries do this. Clearly, I mean where the property is not going to be their home. A law specifically designed to stop foreign investors buying property for profit.

But why would they do that?

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:57 pm**

Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:07 pm
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:50 pm
Adz wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:09 am

Feel free to give your opinion on it
Uncontrolled immigration has nothing to do with the Qataris buying the area I live in and leaving the tax payer to pay £275m in the deal. It has nothing to do with the amount of new build properties across London being bought off plan by the middle east, Chinese and Russians to be left empty. It has nothing to do with my rent going up £750 in the space of 3 years. There are thousands of properties but they’re empty.

Its greed. Its capitalism. Its the Tories. Its the mindset that property is a source of income and not a home.

Stop blaming people and blame the root of the problem.
It’s not so straightforward.

You’re right to call out all the other causes, however I’d argue that, here in the UK, the breaking of the link between average earnings and property prices (enabled by the financialisaton of homes) is a bigger contributor that what you have listed. But, while immigration is by no means the only (or possibly, main) contributor to unaffordable housing, the levels of immigration seen in the last few years will not be consequence-free either.

Immigrants tend to occupy the lowest value properties and in higher densities. In London in particular, this has created the conditions that have allowed HMOs to flourish. This means that a property that would previously have been the target for a basic family unit (think two adults with a kid or two) is now priced out of their reach as they cannot compete with multiples of single salaries. This has a ripple effect throughout and up and down the housing supply chain. And that’s before you get to the issue of unregulated HMOs, which under-funded local authorities are unable to effectively police.

If we stopped mass immigration, we would still have a housing crisis. But the levels of immigration are also making that crisis worse in a way that would still be noticeable without the other factors. Obviously, it’s important not to blame the immigrants themselves for that, as they are certainly easier targets than the international financial elite.

That’s blaming the people moving here, not the people who are in control of the situation.

I don’t know what it is in percentage terms but most of the properties being built recently are built to rent or shared ownership. If they were available to buy at a fair price and help with a deposit, you’d get a lot of people who have to rent on the housing ladder, which frees up other properties.

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:58 pm**

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:53 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:41 pm How difficult would it be for the Government to stop foreign nationals buying property in the UK? Lots of other Countries do this. Clearly, I mean where the property is not going to be their home. A law specifically designed to stop foreign investors buying property for profit.
But why would they do that?

Exactly. Some of those other countries might reciprocate. Us international property-owning lefties would be f*cked.

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:00 pm**

Beradogs wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:47 pm
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:50 pm
Adz wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:09 am

Feel free to give your opinion on it
Uncontrolled immigration has nothing to do with the Qataris buying the area I live in and leaving the tax payer to pay £275m in the deal. It has nothing to do with the amount of new build properties across London being bought off plan by the middle east, Chinese and Russians to be left empty. It has nothing to do with my rent going up £750 in the space of 3 years. There are thousands of properties but they’re empty.

Its greed. Its capitalism. Its the Tories. Its the mindset that property is a source of income and not a home.

Stop blaming people and blame the root of the problem.
You have just put a list of foreign investors to argue against it being foreigners causing a housing shortage.

No, I said immigration isn’t causing rent increases. Learn to read.

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:01 pm**

Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:58 pm
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:53 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:41 pm How difficult would it be for the Government to stop foreign nationals buying property in the UK? Lots of other Countries do this. Clearly, I mean where the property is not going to be their home. A law specifically designed to stop foreign investors buying property for profit.
But why would they do that?
Exactly. Some of those other countries might reciprocate. Us international property-owning lefties would be f*cked.

Well maybe because it might help the situation Biggsy describes. I do realise it would impact the moneyed classes, here and abroad, but I really couldn't give a toss about them.

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:01 pm**

Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:58 pm
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:53 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:41 pm How difficult would it be for the Government to stop foreign nationals buying property in the UK? Lots of other Countries do this. Clearly, I mean where the property is not going to be their home. A law specifically designed to stop foreign investors buying property for profit.
But why would they do that?
Exactly. Some of those other countries might reciprocate. Us international property-owning lefties would be f*cked.

Portugal charge a tax if you sell your property and take the money out of the country but if you reinvest it in the country, they don’t

Can’t remember the exact figures

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:05 pm**

BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:01 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:58 pm
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:53 pm

But why would they do that?
Exactly. Some of those other countries might reciprocate. Us international property-owning lefties would be f*cked.
Well maybe because it might help the situation Biggsy describes. I do realise it would impact the moneyed classes, here and abroad, but I really couldn't give a toss about them.

You've answered why it won't happen - it will impact the wealthy most. We can't be having that.

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:14 pm**

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:05 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:01 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:58 pm

Exactly. Some of those other countries might reciprocate. Us international property-owning lefties would be f*cked.
Well maybe because it might help the situation Biggsy describes. I do realise it would impact the moneyed classes, here and abroad, but I really couldn't give a toss about them.
You've answered why it won't happen - it will impact the wealthy most. We can't be having that.

Sure, I get that as well but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be something a Labour Government (cough) would do. Just because it may be difficult doesn't mean you don't try and do it.

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 4:48 pm**

lol at someone in Australia moaning there’s no space cos of immigration.

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 6:21 pm**

BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:14 pm

Sure, I get that as well but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be something a Labour Government (cough) would do.

What, Sirkieths Labour government that has the support of both millionaire and billionaire former Tory backers? Well it could happen, I guess

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:36 pm**

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 4:48 pm lol at someone in Australia moaning there’s no space cos of immigration.

Where did I say there's no space?

Posted: **Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:46 pm**

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:50 pm
Adz wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:09 am
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:41 am
You genuinely believe all that, don’t you. f*cking hell .
Feel free to give your opinion on it
Uncontrolled immigration has nothing to do with the Qataris buying the area I live in and leaving the tax payer to pay £275m in the deal. It has nothing to do with the amount of new build properties across London being bought off plan by the middle east, Chinese and Russians to be left empty. It has nothing to do with my rent going up £750 in the space of 3 years. There are thousands of properties but they’re empty.

Its greed. Its capitalism. Its the Tories. Its the mindset that property is a source of income and not a home.

Stop blaming people and blame the root of the problem.

I don't disagree that property being used as a financial vehicle is also bad for everyone. There should be a higher tax on foreign buyers to reduce this demand, but this demand hasn't changed year on year though, the thing that has changed is nom.

I'm not blaming the immigrants, I'm blaming the governments for facilitating it.

Again speaking for Australia, when you have a long run nom of 150k and this year it's 600k you don't have time to build the numbers needed, that's why it needs to be better controlled. There are a bunch of other factors restricting development, council, nimby, etc, and foreign buyers as you've mentioned, but until they're fixed there needs to be an immigration cap.

Posted: **Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:30 am**

I don't know the situation in Australia, but in the UK the only thing generating any growth in GDP is immigration. The problem is that, when GDP growth is contrasted with other metrics, such as productivity and average wages, it paints a different picture. But Western policy makers do not seem to have any idea on any other way to organise a socio-economic system, so are just going for broke.

Posted: **Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:32 am**

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:30 am But Western policy makers do not seem to have any idea on any other way to organise a socio-economic system.

There isn't, that's why.

Posted: **Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:04 am**

I don’t normally talk politics on here however watching the media I’m coming to the conclusion that the two main parties in this election are getting very concerned about the Reform party. Personally I haven’t made my mind up as of yet but like I said the media are intent on dissing Farage. It’s struck me as funny, all of a sudden the main two parties (Labour and Conservative) are now promising how they are are going to fix everything but in reality we all know if and when elected will deliver nothing. What a sad state this country has become.

Posted: **Tue Jul 02, 2024 11:46 am**

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:30 am I don't know the situation in Australia, but in the UK the only thing generating any growth in GDP is immigration. The problem is that, when GDP growth is contrasted with other metrics, such as productivity and average wages, it paints a different picture. But Western policy makers do not seem to have any idea on any other way to organise a socio-economic system, so are just going for broke.

The sooner they move to per capita reporting the sooner they can't hide behind it.

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