Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:01 pm Southgate is an excellent man manager, and the players want to play for him and England without doubt. That was not always the case in the past.

He has changed the image of the team (and it's followers) too and deserves credit for that.

Perhaps he can be found wanting tactically. In my lifetime, England have never had a "world class" manager- not really. Not an Ancelloti (say). It would be interesting to see what would happen if we did.

Southgate is to England what Slade was to Orient imo. Had a team punching above its weight due to excellent man management and team spirit but without that extra bit of nous and edge to win when push comes to shove.

What's particularly frustrating in recent years is twice having the advantage in massive games and being the better side but not having the conviction to press home the advantage. We can't hold onto a 1-0 for 45+ minutes against the top sides.

I can't imagine Southgate doing some Wellens-esque gamesmanship to waste 5-10 mins at the end of a tight match, it's just not in his DNA. Look how the England women saw out their lead against Germany; anti-football in the corner and clattering through the opposition to keep it there. Watch and learn Gareth...

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 10:25 am

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:01 pm Southgate is an excellent man manager, and the players want to play for him and England without doubt. That was not always the case in the past.

He has changed the image of the team (and it's followers) too and deserves credit for that.

Perhaps he can be found wanting tactically. In my lifetime, England have never had a "world class" manager- not really. Not an Ancelloti (say). It would be interesting to see what would happen if we did.

Southgate is to England what Slade was to Orient imo. Had a team punching above its weight due to excellent man management and team spirit but without that extra bit of nous and edge to win when push comes to shove.

What's particularly frustrating in recent years is twice having the advantage in massive games and being the better side but not having the conviction to press home the advantage. We can't hold onto a 1-0 for 45+ minutes against the top sides.

I can't imagine Southgate doing some Wellens-esque gamesmanship to waste 5-10 mins at the end of a tight match, it's just not in his DNA. Look how the England women saw out their lead against Germany; anti-football in the corner and clattering through the opposition to keep it there. Watch and learn Gareth...

That is an on the surface left-field, but also excellent comparison GS (to Slade). Southgate imo has had the players punching above their weight - not under-achieving as many are convinced of.

You would say that Bellingham is world-class (or close to it), but I don't see that in Any of the others, though of course granted Kane/Saka/Foden/Rice are good players without doubt, albeit Spurs hardly seem to have missed Kane, his record speaks for itself.

At the back Maguire has been the butt of jokes for years but has never let England down. Now without him, (and Stones semi-crocked) we look very light in that area indeed. This is not a competition winning back 4, that's for sure. Yet still people will scream at Southgate if we don't emerge victorious, under the delusion that we are "world class", and have a "right" to win the trophy- although we've only 1 on home soil, nearly 60 years ago, the sense of infant-like entitlement persists.

“Spurs hardly seem to have missed Kane”


Absolute nonsense. Kane carried spurs for years, and the team under Mourinho and Conte was set up entirely around the idea that his chance to goals ratio meant that we could focus on low risk defensive play and still do OK. This season we set up totally differently, and our way of playing would have been a LOT more effective if we’d had a striker of Kane’s quality. The idea that he isn’t world class is ludicrous.

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 4:00 pm Southgate imo has had the players punching above their weight - not under-achieving as many are convinced of.

As poor as you think the players are, do you not think they should be beating the likes of Iceland ?
Do you think Southgate has got Foden punching above his weight for England ?

I agree with the comments about our defence not being strong enough however imo our midfield and forwards are more than capable, Southgate as I said before has no tactical expertise,playing Foden in the middle always playing 2 defensive midfielders, no width and I still can’t get over putting 2 young kids on in the euro final in the last minute to take penalties? It’s a cup competition and you have to throw caution to the wind but Southgate is only capable of hot air and no more.

Kane, Foden, Saka, Bellingham and possibly Rice are all world class players that would walk into almost any other countries starting xi

The reason Southgate plays defensively and with two holding midfielders is so blinding obvious but people still can’t seem to understand the basics of winning tournament football

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 5:48 pm The reason Southgate plays defensively and with two holding midfielders is so blinding obvious but people still can’t seem to understand the basics of winning tournament football

The same people will question his tactical nous

CEB wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 4:13 pm “Spurs hardly seem to have missed Kane”


Absolute nonsense. Kane carried spurs for years, and the team under Mourinho and Conte was set up entirely around the idea that his chance to goals ratio meant that we could focus on low risk defensive play and still do OK. This season we set up totally differently, and our way of playing would have been a LOT more effective if we’d had a striker of Kane’s quality. The idea that he isn’t world class is ludicrous.

Fair enough. I don't support Spurs, so would know less about the finer detail than you.
I was basing it on League positions only

22/23 with Kane = 8th
23/24 Without Kane = 5th

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 5:46 pm Kane, Foden, Saka, Bellingham and possibly Rice are all world class players that would walk into almost any other countries starting xi

Foden has scored 3 goals in 34 games for England. With a high proportion of those games against lesser opposition. I can't imagine Spain, France, or Brazil (say) are crying too heavily he's not playing for them. He runs around a lot though.

Saka is a good player, and is capable of moments of magic, but drifts out of games a lot. World Class? Nah. Maybe further down the line perhaps he might be.

Rice is a very decent, tidy, defensive midfielder. The best we have for sure but that doesn't automatically make him "world class".

Of course many blame Southgate that all these "world class" players haven't won anything. No doubt that will be fixed when Southgate is replaced then...and they show their 'true' class.
Let's see

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 4:24 pm

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 4:00 pm Southgate imo has had the players punching above their weight - not under-achieving as many are convinced of.

As poor as you think the players are, do you not think they should be beating the likes of Iceland ?
Do you think Southgate has got Foden punching above his weight for England ?

Absolutely and without question England "should" be beating Iceland.
We couldn't seem to manage it under the previous regime, either (Roy Hodgson)

Foden plays poorly to average for England, and much better for City granted. He has better players around him at City. Overall though I think Southgate has had the squad punching above it's weight though.

If that Isn't the case, then no doubt the next incumbent will do better (than Southgate) eh.

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:16 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 4:13 pm “Spurs hardly seem to have missed Kane”


Absolute nonsense. Kane carried spurs for years, and the team under Mourinho and Conte was set up entirely around the idea that his chance to goals ratio meant that we could focus on low risk defensive play and still do OK. This season we set up totally differently, and our way of playing would have been a LOT more effective if we’d had a striker of Kane’s quality. The idea that he isn’t world class is ludicrous.

Fair enough. I don't support Spurs, so would know less about the finer detail than you.
I was basing it on League positions only

22/23 with Kane = 8th
23/24 Without Kane = 5th

Can totally see how league positions would give that impression. It’s basically really frustrating (and in the realms of “what ifs”) but we changed our entire mindset and tactical approach, with mixed results.
But in 22/23 we imploded horrendously 2 thirds through the season, and the eighth place finish was a direct result of a near complete loss of morale and direction. This season we did really well to bring back a sense that there was a shared mentality, but it was hit and miss and we really missed having a reliable striker. And I tell you what, seeing Kane on the telly gives you barely 10% of an idea of what that man does. He is pretty much always where he needs to be, and his vision and range of passing would be what he was renowned as world class for if it wasn’t for how prolific a goal scorer he is. If anything, he’s underrated

Is this right?

Goalkeepers: Dean Henderson (Crystal Palace), Jordan Pickford (Everton), Aaron Ramsdale (Arsenal).

Defenders: Lewis Dunk (Brighton), Joe Gomez (Liverpool), Marc Guehi (Crystal Palace), Ezri Konsa (Aston Villa), Luke Shaw (Manchester United), John Stones (Manchester City), Kieran Trippier (Newcastle), Kyle Walker (Manchester City).

Midfielders: Trent Alexander-Arnold (Liverpool), Conor Gallagher (Chelsea), Kobbie Mainoo (Manchester United), Declan Rice (Arsenal), Adam Wharton (Crystal Palace).

Forwards: Jude Bellingham (Real Madrid), Jarrod Bowen (West Ham), Eberechi Eze (Crystal Palace), Phil Foden (Manchester City), Anthony Gordon (Newcastle), Harry Kane (Bayern Munich), Cole Palmer (Chelsea), Bukayo Saka (Arsenal), Ivan Toney (Brentford), Ollie Watkins (Aston Villa).

I dont closely follow England or the PL. But 5 midfielders doesnt seem like a lot, (especially when TAA is a wing back?) and then he's got 10 forwards?

Midfielders here refers to the two holding positions in a 4-2-3-1; theres 4-6 of the “forwards” who would more correctly be described as attacking midfielders/wingers

I tell you what though - people worrying about Bellingham and Kane in case of an injury, but we are f***ed if Declan Rice picks up a knock

CEB wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:34 pm

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:16 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 4:13 pm “Spurs hardly seem to have missed Kane”


Absolute nonsense. Kane carried spurs for years, and the team under Mourinho and Conte was set up entirely around the idea that his chance to goals ratio meant that we could focus on low risk defensive play and still do OK. This season we set up totally differently, and our way of playing would have been a LOT more effective if we’d had a striker of Kane’s quality. The idea that he isn’t world class is ludicrous.

Fair enough. I don't support Spurs, so would know less about the finer detail than you.
I was basing it on League positions only

22/23 with Kane = 8th
23/24 Without Kane = 5th

Can totally see how league positions would give that impression. It’s basically really frustrating (and in the realms of “what ifs”) but we changed our entire mindset and tactical approach, with mixed results.
But in 22/23 we imploded horrendously 2 thirds through the season, and the eighth place finish was a direct result of a near complete loss of morale and direction. This season we did really well to bring back a sense that there was a shared mentality, but it was hit and miss and we really missed having a reliable striker. And I tell you what, seeing Kane on the telly gives you barely 10% of an idea of what that man does. He is pretty much always where he needs to be, and his vision and range of passing would be what he was renowned as world class for if it wasn’t for how prolific a goal scorer he is. If anything, he’s underrated

Thanks for the detail - makes more sense and, just to be clear, I am not knocking Kane. In fact I'd go as far as to say he's likely my favourite English player in my lifetime, and certainly of current times without doubt.
Not just a very good scorer, but also creator . He handles himself impeccably and sets a fantastic example.

I was under the impression THFC had not really missed him, but you've clarified otherwise. Fair enough.