Independent Leyton Orient Forum

As others have confirmed, I believe there's nowhere to "go" regards the North and South stands.

Leasing issues with the West, so that will stay. Even *if we could knock down the East and rebuild (at vast expense), that would bring the capacity Down to around 6k during those works, which would take at least a season.
I can't see the board looking at this to get perhaps 1500 extra seats.

What we may see (if we don't move) is prices rise, so e.g. £150 on a ST next year as the "club needs the revenue to progress".
Perhaps the days of the £650 ST aren't as far away as we might imagine.
Who would be pay happy to pay this?
Of course there would be no guarantee of success post that.

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 7:59 pm As others have confirmed, I believe there's nowhere to "go" regards the North and South stands.

Leasing issues with the West, so that will stay. Even *if we could knock down the East and rebuild (at vast expense), that would bring the capacity Down to around 6k during those works, which would take at least a season.
I can't see the board looking at this to get perhaps 1500 extra seats.

What we may see (if we don't move) is prices rise, so e.g. £150 on a ST next year as the "club needs the revenue to progress".
Perhaps the days of the £650 ST aren't as far away as we might imagine.
Who would be pay happy to pay this?
Of course there would be no guarantee of success post that.

£650 for a ST in league 1 is absolutely insane.

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:04 pm

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 7:59 pm As others have confirmed, I believe there's nowhere to "go" regards the North and South stands.

Leasing issues with the West, so that will stay. Even *if we could knock down the East and rebuild (at vast expense), that would bring the capacity Down to around 6k during those works, which would take at least a season.
I can't see the board looking at this to get perhaps 1500 extra seats.

What we may see (if we don't move) is prices rise, so e.g. £150 on a ST next year as the "club needs the revenue to progress".
Perhaps the days of the £650 ST aren't as far away as we might imagine.
Who would be pay happy to pay this?
Of course there would be no guarantee of success post that.

£650 for a ST in league 1 is absolutely insane.

I agree.

But there are only so many things the club can do, if the capacity can't be expanded.
Of course Nigel Travis (without doubt) is a fan, but these guys are businessmen.
There has already been an incinuation that if you don't buy food in the ground you're not a "proper fan"

These types of investors want All fans to hoover up replica shirts (home and away), jackets, tracksuits, etc etc. To some extent, fans are there to be milked.I get that that is modern football.

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:12 pm

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:04 pm

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 7:59 pm As others have confirmed, I believe there's nowhere to "go" regards the North and South stands.

Leasing issues with the West, so that will stay. Even *if we could knock down the East and rebuild (at vast expense), that would bring the capacity Down to around 6k during those works, which would take at least a season.
I can't see the board looking at this to get perhaps 1500 extra seats.

What we may see (if we don't move) is prices rise, so e.g. £150 on a ST next year as the "club needs the revenue to progress".
Perhaps the days of the £650 ST aren't as far away as we might imagine.
Who would be pay happy to pay this?
Of course there would be no guarantee of success post that.

£650 for a ST in league 1 is absolutely insane.

I agree.

But there are only so many things the club can do, if the capacity can't be expanded.
Of course Nigel Travis (without doubt) is a fan, but these guys are businessmen.
There has already been an incinuation that if you don't buy food in the ground you're not a "proper fan"

These types of investors want All fans to hoover up replica shirts (home and away), jackets, tracksuits, etc etc. To some extent, fans are there to be milked.I get that that is modern football.

Club needs to be careful if they go down this route. At £650 for league 1 football the likes of Walthamstow FC become a genuinely preferably alternative due to being much more affordable.

Of course, I'm just speculating/plucked a figure out of the sky, but if we have loftier ambitions the money will need to come from somewhere..

A bit like Fulham asking £3k for some of their season tickets..

Even then - 4500 STs @ £650 only comes to £2.9m. In football terms, that isn't a great deal
The club would of course be risking people turning their backs. I live 45 miles from the ground so no way would I come in to watch Walthamstow personally, even I chose not to go Orient.

I do know 1 or 2 who have simply tired of the "atmosphere" (sometimes toxic) of league football, and decamped to Walthamstow already.
There's certainly no way They would be coming back..

LPE wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 4:16 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 3:49 pm

LPE wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 3:38 pm With a new East Stand (which would have to come out into the road a bit. Over to you, LBWF)

This is a non starter for many reasons, not least safety on a matchday. Need to be easily anle to get emergency sevices in and crowds out.

and a second tier on the North Stand capacity could increase by c.3-4K. This would increase budget and be enough for the Championship

Unlikely to get planning permission without a big fight & possible public inquiry as it would block out light to many flats at that end in both corners. This is without the people in street behind objecting.


Then doubling capacity of that stand would mean you need extra access and egress from the stand for safety purposes.(Could be done)

What the club need to do is heavily incentivise the hundreds of non-attending STH for sold out games. That way matches are a sell out and there is additional revenue on tickets already sold.

Not sure there is anything much to gain here.

Club already offer financial incentives to fans to return unused STs.

This and any extra incentives need to be deducted from price club get by reselling tickets.

Overall, the income will be miniscule after deducting cost to club

A winning team playing attractive football is the only way to ensure all of that happens.

But the incentive doesn’t work, does it. I sit in the East and for every ‘sold out’ match there is easily 500 empty seats for every one of these fixtures across the ground. The carrot being dangled is clearly not big enough.

Agreed.

Time to bring out the stick.

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:19 pm

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:12 pm

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:04 pm

£650 for a ST in league 1 is absolutely insane.

I agree.

But there are only so many things the club can do, if the capacity can't be expanded.
Of course Nigel Travis (without doubt) is a fan, but these guys are businessmen.
There has already been an incinuation that if you don't buy food in the ground you're not a "proper fan"

These types of investors want All fans to hoover up replica shirts (home and away), jackets, tracksuits, etc etc. To some extent, fans are there to be milked.I get that that is modern football.

Club needs to be careful if they go down this route. At £650 for league 1 football the likes of Walthamstow FC become a genuinely preferably alternative due to being much more affordable.

What step are Walthamstow? 4? 5? There’s no comparison, it’s a totally different product.

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:04 pm

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 7:59 pm As others have confirmed, I believe there's nowhere to "go" regards the North and South stands.

Leasing issues with the West, so that will stay. Even *if we could knock down the East and rebuild (at vast expense), that would bring the capacity Down to around 6k during those works, which would take at least a season.
I can't see the board looking at this to get perhaps 1500 extra seats.

What we may see (if we don't move) is prices rise, so e.g. £150 on a ST next year as the "club needs the revenue to progress".
Perhaps the days of the £650 ST aren't as far away as we might imagine.
Who would be pay happy to pay this?
Of course there would be no guarantee of success post that.

£650 for a ST in league 1 is absolutely insane.

How much are the Gallery STs?

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:31 pm

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:19 pm

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:12 pm

I agree.

But there are only so many things the club can do, if the capacity can't be expanded.
Of course Nigel Travis (without doubt) is a fan, but these guys are businessmen.
There has already been an incinuation that if you don't buy food in the ground you're not a "proper fan"

These types of investors want All fans to hoover up replica shirts (home and away), jackets, tracksuits, etc etc. To some extent, fans are there to be milked.I get that that is modern football.

Club needs to be careful if they go down this route. At £650 for league 1 football the likes of Walthamstow FC become a genuinely preferably alternative due to being much more affordable.

What step are Walthamstow? 4? 5? There’s no comparison, it’s a totally different product.

It is, but if your motivation is “affordable football” with a decent, welcoming atmosphere then it’s a competitive product. Especially for casual fans who aren’t massively fussed about the level of football they are watching. I mentioned Walthamstow as they are close and I happen to have been there myself but any non-league club where is costs less than a tenner and is a nice environment for kids/the family would be the same. And there are plenty of them.

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 9:42 pm

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:31 pm

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:19 pm

Club needs to be careful if they go down this route. At £650 for league 1 football the likes of Walthamstow FC become a genuinely preferably alternative due to being much more affordable.

What step are Walthamstow? 4? 5? There’s no comparison, it’s a totally different product.

It is, but if your motivation is “affordable football” with a decent, welcoming atmosphere then it’s a competitive product. Especially for casual fans who aren’t massively fussed about the level of football they are watching. I mentioned Walthamstow as they are close and I happen to have been there myself but any non-league club where is costs less than a tenner and is a nice environment for kids/the family would be the same. And there are plenty of them.

Agree with all you say, but it's rare to find non league football in London area for under £10.


Barking in Step 5, one below Walthamstow charged £10 today

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:31 pm

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:19 pm

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:12 pm

I agree.

But there are only so many things the club can do, if the capacity can't be expanded.
Of course Nigel Travis (without doubt) is a fan, but these guys are businessmen.
There has already been an incinuation that if you don't buy food in the ground you're not a "proper fan"

These types of investors want All fans to hoover up replica shirts (home and away), jackets, tracksuits, etc etc. To some extent, fans are there to be milked.I get that that is modern football.

Club needs to be careful if they go down this route. At £650 for league 1 football the likes of Walthamstow FC become a genuinely preferably alternative due to being much more affordable.

What step are Walthamstow? 4? 5? There’s no comparison, it’s a totally different product.

You can stand where you want at any point and take your own beer in or support a local brewery who sell their stuff there. The PA system is pretty much the same as Orient’s. The quality of football isn’t terrible either. Decent sized crowds.

Some of my favourite match days over the last few years have been at Wadham Lodge watching Clapton CFC (who have since moved back) and Walthamstow FC.

Devlin might know about football but he is completely missing the mark on the local community who are casual.

Have to agree on Walthamstow being attractive long term. Especially if O’s move from BR.

I’ve only been once during Covid, with the lads, but £7 entry and buying cans from the corner shop (that geezer must make a fortune) with a nice atmosphere and standing was excellent. Boozers not packed pre or post match either and I quite enjoy the 50 minute walk up there each way.

What Walthamstow FC seem to have is the ability to actually come over as a community club, and to get the tone right for the place they want to occupy in the community. It feels effortless when done well (remember when the board’s very own The Cat basically shaped the public identity of Orient for a couple of years and helped make it seem genuinely accessible and fun?)

I know a fair few Orient regulars who have decided their time is better spent at Stow FC, and stuff like Stow’s William Morris shirt idea is such a clever thing, especially contrasted with Orient’s recent history of shirt sponsors

The other benefit of a club like Walthamstow is that you don’t get the coked up wannabe hooligan bell ends that infest league football crowds (even more so at away games).

There’s also the fact that if the club is able to attract larger crowds this will benefit them financially due to increase gate receipts and you’d imagine they should be able to climb a league or two as a result.

I’m not saying that everyone is going to suddenly start flocking to 8th tier football because the standard, whilst considerably better than what you’d see up Hackney Marshes on a Sunday morning, is way off football league. But if league 1 clubs start to price fans out (as a lot of premier league teams already have done) everyone has their tipping point.

The casual supporters will give up first, especially the ones with young families. These are the people currently taking orients attendances from c5,000-6,000 to 8,000+.

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 8:24 pm

The casual supporters will give up first, especially the ones with young families. These are the people currently taking orients attendances from c5,000-6,000 to 8,000+.

1.You have that as factual information from the club ?
2.Any proof of that statement ?

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 8:32 pm

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 8:24 pm

The casual supporters will give up first, especially the ones with young families. These are the people currently taking orients attendances from c5,000-6,000 to 8,000+.

1.You have that as factual information from the club ?
2.Any proof of that statement ?

Sorry Tuffers, I don’t have the figures to hand.

There is a plan to enlarge the East Side without knocking it down, by building a narrow new structure in Brisbane Rd and adding c 7 rows at the top. Would get us to 10 K enough for L1/Championship with the Spurs Ladies additional income

The other possible option longer term is to share or acquire the hockey and tennis centre on Temple Mills. I reckon you could fit in a 25k stadium. Obviously a long term project but great possibilty...

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:00 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 8:32 pm

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 8:24 pm

The casual supporters will give up first, especially the ones with young families. These are the people currently taking orients attendances from c5,000-6,000 to 8,000+.

1.You have that as factual information from the club ?
2.Any proof of that statement ?

Sorry Tuffers, I don’t have the figures to hand.

It's Joe,
so you are just guessing. ok more nonsense.
I've never really heard of casual supporters
being Season ticket holders before.

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:00 pm Club needs to be careful if they go down this route. At £650 for league 1 football the likes of Walthamstow FC become a genuinely preferably alternative due to being much more affordable.

It was you who wrote this wasn't it ?

Ask LSN if My I.P is the Same as this Tuffers
Should put it to bed once & for all.

Blimey your up early this morning being pedantic tuffers

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 7:57 am Blimey your up early this morning being pedantic tuffers

It's Joe,
Ask LSN if My I.P is the Same as this Tuffers
Should put it to bed once & for all.

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 9:42 pm

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:31 pm

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:19 pm

Club needs to be careful if they go down this route. At £650 for league 1 football the likes of Walthamstow FC become a genuinely preferably alternative due to being much more affordable.

What step are Walthamstow? 4? 5? There’s no comparison, it’s a totally different product.

It is, but if your motivation is “affordable football” with a decent, welcoming atmosphere then it’s a competitive product. Especially for casual fans who aren’t massively fussed about the level of football they are watching. I mentioned Walthamstow as they are close and I happen to have been there myself but any non-league club where is costs less than a tenner and is a nice environment for kids/the family would be the same. And there are plenty of them.

I'm aware Walthamstow is a bit culty like Clapton was/is not that long ago but I'm guessing it's just a passing fad.

Joe315 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 7:45 am

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:00 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 8:32 pm

1.You have that as factual information from the club ?
2.Any proof of that statement ?

Sorry Tuffers, I don’t have the figures to hand.

It's Joe,
so you are just guessing. ok more nonsense.
I've never really of heard of a casual supporters
being Season ticket holders before.

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:00 pm Club needs to be careful if they go down this route. At £650 for league 1 football the likes of Walthamstow FC become a genuinely preferably alternative due to being much more affordable.

It was you who wrote this wasn't it ?

Ask LSN if My I.P is the Same as this Tuffers
Should put it to bed once & for all.

Whatever you say, Tuffers.

CEB wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 8:16 pm

I know a fair few Orient regulars who have decided their time is better spent at Stow FC,

Quantify a fair few - we're literally talking about 3 or 4, aren't we? And they're all now on their 3rd or 4th football team?

Walthamstow are not a threat to our long term existence. (Although the £650 ST The Reverend has dreampt up may well be).

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:11 pm We need to move to a different ground. This is a real problem within the current borough, but unless we solve this problem, we will never rise higher than league 1.
A ground holding about 22,000 would be a starting point, with the ability to add capacity if the club should ever get into the Premier league.
Seems a far off pipedream at present, but Brentford, Brighton, & Bournemouth were all league 2 teams 20 years or less ago, and are all now Premier league teams

Yes and only Brighton have a capacity in excess of the 22,000 you mention ,17 k for brentford and 11.5 for Brentford. Would have thought if you get a ground with between 15-20k you should be able to compete in the lower half of the championship.

The Reverend wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 9:14 am

Joe315 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 7:45 am

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:00 pm

Sorry Tuffers, I don’t have the figures to hand.

It's Joe,
so you are just guessing. ok more nonsense.
I've never really of heard of a casual supporters
being Season ticket holders before.

The Reverend wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:00 pm Club needs to be careful if they go down this route. At £650 for league 1 football the likes of Walthamstow FC become a genuinely preferably alternative due to being much more affordable.

It was you who wrote this wasn't it ?

Ask LSN if My I.P is the Same as this Tuffers
Should put it to bed once & for all.

Whatever you say, Tuffers.

I'm Joe. Nobody else.