Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 7:43 pm Refused to wear the rainbow armband, allegedly…he can go…

He is of Muslim faith. The faith is widely known for it's intolerance of homosexuality. No doubt that carries over into all trans people and types as well.

I don't agree with him (El Miz), in fact- I think he's an idiot here; but it's no surprise that he stuck by the principles of the 7th century ideology from the prophet/sky-fairy, as many Muslims would do.

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:44 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 7:43 pm Refused to wear the rainbow armband, allegedly…he can go…

He is of Muslim faith. The faith is widely known for it's intolerance of homosexuality. No doubt that carries over into all trans people and types as well.

I don't agree with him (El Miz), in fact- I think he's an idiot here; but it's no surprise that he stuck by the principles of the 7th century ideology from the prophet/sky-fairy, as many Muslims would do.

You make out as though Islam is on its own in this regard.

All the big religions are down on man on man action, aren’t they?

A pluralist society does have some of these conflicts, and there’s no one accepted version of Christianity or Islam that could mean that any club could say “no, this isn’t against your beliefs”
A lot of football’s laces and armband inclusion initiatives are tokenistic crap anyway. I think it’s probably better for a person to say (even if I don’t agree) “I can’t reconcile supporting this initiative with my own belief system” than for a player to happily take plaudits for supporting progressive causes when it’s easy to do so, then take the Saudi dollar and immediately throw out the rainbow laces

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:37 am

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:27 am How will we all feel, if next week, or the week after, El Miz has gone? I'll feel bloody terrible. Without him, we'll be such an average /poor team.
Allegedly, we paid £300,000 for Moncur, a player that struggles to last 30 mins on a football pitch. El Miz is young and fit, and in 2 years will be worth a million plus....makes good business sense
As for him allegedly refusing to wear a rainbow armband....as a Muslim , Homosexuality is a sin, and he would find it deeply offensive to wear it. We have to be tolerant of other faiths.
Im only interested in him as a footballer playing for us

We must tolerate intolerance?

So, are you intolerant of people who are intolerant?

By this year's performance, maybe 98k tooo much ?

Orient Punxx wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:09 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 7:43 pm Refused to wear the rainbow armband, allegedly…he can go…

Should never have been put in that position, club at fault imo.

?

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:51 pm

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:44 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 7:43 pm Refused to wear the rainbow armband, allegedly…he can go…

He is of Muslim faith. The faith is widely known for it's intolerance of homosexuality. No doubt that carries over into all trans people and types as well.

I don't agree with him (El Miz), in fact- I think he's an idiot here; but it's no surprise that he stuck by the principles of the 7th century ideology from the prophet/sky-fairy, as many Muslims would do.

You make out as though Islam is on its own in this regard.

All the big religions are down on man on man action, aren’t they?

Maybe, but not all want to jail them. Get real.

FrankOFile wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 5:38 am

Orient Punxx wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:09 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 7:43 pm Refused to wear the rainbow armband, allegedly…he can go…

Should never have been put in that position, club at fault imo.

?

The “Rainbow” armband is an annual event. Could have been foreseen that the wearing of the armband is a requirement by the club.

FrankOFile wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 5:40 am

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:51 pm

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:44 pm

He is of Muslim faith. The faith is widely known for it's intolerance of homosexuality. No doubt that carries over into all trans people and types as well.

I don't agree with him (El Miz), in fact- I think he's an idiot here; but it's no surprise that he stuck by the principles of the 7th century ideology from the prophet/sky-fairy, as many Muslims would do.

You make out as though Islam is on its own in this regard.

All the big religions are down on man on man action, aren’t they?

Maybe, but not all want to jail them. Get real.

Judaism says those involved are threatened with capital punishment.

Christianity isn't to keen either.

Orient Punxx wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 6:45 am

FrankOFile wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 5:38 am

Orient Punxx wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:09 pm

Should never have been put in that position, club at fault imo.

?

The “Rainbow” armband is an annual event. Could have been foreseen that the wearing of the armband is a requirement by the club.

Religion is a daily event for those who believe.

Surely the club could make someone else capt for the day.

Orient Punxx wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 6:45 am

FrankOFile wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 5:38 am

Orient Punxx wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:09 pm

Should never have been put in that position, club at fault imo.

?

The “Rainbow” armband is an annual event. Could have been foreseen that the wearing of the armband is a requirement by the club.

Whatever happened to freedom of choice?


Presumably you would also agree that if the FA chose in future to support the Nazis then everyone should be forced to make a Nazi salute on the pitch?

Actually no need to look forward, we can look back to 1938 when this happened. It has not gone down as one of England's finest moments
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/fo ... nd-fascism


Part of the LGBT campaign is about freedom, including their freedom to sexual expression. You want yo deny other people's freedom of choice & force them to display support for something they do not support.

There is an irony in forcing someone to support another person's freedom

faith1234 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 6:04 pm All depends on how much we have in the kity

Not enough

spen666 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 7:52 am

Orient Punxx wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 6:45 am

FrankOFile wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 5:38 am

?

The “Rainbow” armband is an annual event. Could have been foreseen that the wearing of the armband is a requirement by the club.

Whatever happened to freedom of choice?


Presumably you would also agree that if the FA chose in future to support the Nazis then everyone should be forced to make a Nazi salute on the pitch?

Actually no need to look forward, we can look back to 1938 when this happened. It has not gone down as one of England's finest moments
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/fo ... nd-fascism


Part of the LGBT campaign is about freedom, including their freedom to sexual expression. You want yo deny other people's freedom of choice & force them to display support for something they do not support.

There is an irony in forcing someone to support another person's freedom

Ridiculous and you know it.

Anyone is free to be intolerant of who someone loves but we should question whether they want people who feel this way representing our club, especially after our public backing of groups like RainbOs.

All rumours though.

RTW can you read my post on this which expresses something similar but outlines why it is actually OK for someone to abstain from actively supporting something that is a matter of conscience for himself (and based on a protected characteristic, freedom of religion/belief)?

But anyway, your response isn’t a fair summation of what Miz is even rumoured to have done.
“I won’t wear a rainbow armband” isn’t a refusal to accept who someone loves (and if he was telling a gay colleague that gayness is a sin, well then that would be an issue) but he is refusing to actively support something that’s in conflict with his religious views.

Ultimately, if you made it mandatory to not just be tolerant of (and there’s no suggestion at all that Miz is intolerant) but to actively support certain causes, then that would demonstrably have an impact in restricting the ability of many people from religious backgrounds to be included in football. That’s why these things have to be balanced, and why abstaining from participating in activism is not “intolerance”

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 9:05 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 7:52 am

Orient Punxx wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 6:45 am

The “Rainbow” armband is an annual event. Could have been foreseen that the wearing of the armband is a requirement by the club.

Whatever happened to freedom of choice?


Presumably you would also agree that if the FA chose in future to support the Nazis then everyone should be forced to make a Nazi salute on the pitch?

Actually no need to look forward, we can look back to 1938 when this happened. It has not gone down as one of England's finest moments
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/fo ... nd-fascism


Part of the LGBT campaign is about freedom, including their freedom to sexual expression. You want yo deny other people's freedom of choice & force them to display support for something they do not support.

There is an irony in forcing someone to support another person's freedom

Ridiculous and you know it.

Anyone is free to be intolerant of who someone loves but we should question whether they want people who feel this way representing our club, especially after our public backing of groups like RainbOs.

All rumours though.

You appear to be intolerant of someone for having a different opinion.

Fortunately we are free in this country to choose whether to support a cause or not. It is the choice of the individual, not a choice imposed on them.

It's ironic you want to deny the freedom to someone to choose what they support

He is employed by Orient as a footballer

spen666 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 7:03 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 9:05 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 7:52 am


Whatever happened to freedom of choice?


Presumably you would also agree that if the FA chose in future to support the Nazis then everyone should be forced to make a Nazi salute on the pitch?

Actually no need to look forward, we can look back to 1938 when this happened. It has not gone down as one of England's finest moments
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/fo ... nd-fascism


Part of the LGBT campaign is about freedom, including their freedom to sexual expression. You want yo deny other people's freedom of choice & force them to display support for something they do not support.

There is an irony in forcing someone to support another person's freedom

Ridiculous and you know it.

Anyone is free to be intolerant of who someone loves but we should question whether they want people who feel this way representing our club, especially after our public backing of groups like RainbOs.

All rumours though.

You appear to be intolerant of someone for having a different opinion.

Fortunately we are free in this country to choose whether to support a cause or not. It is the choice of the individual, not a choice imposed on them.

It's ironic you want to deny the freedom to someone to choose what they support

He is employed by Orient as a footballer

Where did I say I want to deny his freedom to choose what he supports? Very un-Spen to not talk in facts rather than hyperbole.

You advocated for consequences for him for not supporting the cause.
I don’t think Spen was saying you were going to send him to the gulag. He was clearly referring to the fact that you suggested you wanted him out of the club if the rumour is true

CEB wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 7:56 pm You advocated for consequences for him for not supporting the cause.
I don’t think Spen was saying you were going to send him to the gulag. He was clearly referring to the fact that you suggested you wanted him out of the club if the rumour is true

But to play Spen at his own game, I haven’t indicated that he shouldn’t have freedom of opinion or choice. His obsession with that point is purely coincidental, I’m sure

That’s not really playing him at his game, it’s evading the opportunity to articulate your own point well; it seems to me that you are overstating the importance of refusing to participate in activism that goes again a sincerely held (if misguided) belief, but his freedom of religion (and right to hold views and act according to conscience) is protected.

I’d be right with you on this if he said “I’m not supporting this - I think gay people have no place in football, it’s disgusting”, but that’s not what’s happened - he’s alleged to have refused as a matter of conscience to support a cause that he (understandably) believes to be in conflict with his religious beliefs.
So the point is that if we were to introduce an idea that every player should be expected to participate in pro- LGBT causes, that would constitute an act of exclusion against a lot of religious people.

(Also, as a general principle, if people are free to abstain from activism within football, it increases the idea ghat those who do partake are doing it freely and enthusiastically, which is surely more desirable)

Where is the evidence or who is the source that this happened?

I first heard this rumour waaaaaaaaay back at 7:43pm on 5th Jan 2024

We have to face facts guys, El Miz will not be an Orient player in a few weeks.
We don’t have the funds/budget to sign him.
Be a huge loss to our team!

FrankOFile wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 5:40 am

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:51 pm

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:44 pm

He is of Muslim faith. The faith is widely known for it's intolerance of homosexuality. No doubt that carries over into all trans people and types as well.

I don't agree with him (El Miz), in fact- I think he's an idiot here; but it's no surprise that he stuck by the principles of the 7th century ideology from the prophet/sky-fairy, as many Muslims would do.

You make out as though Islam is on its own in this regard.

All the big religions are down on man on man action, aren’t they?

Maybe, but not all want to jail them. Get real.

..or publicly hang them from a crane.

Stan1972 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:36 am We have to face facts guys, El Miz will not be an Orient player in a few weeks.
We don’t have the funds/budget to sign him.
Be a huge loss to our team!

Unless Ipswich price him too high and no-one bites, best case scenario

gshaw wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 11:55 am

Stan1972 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:36 am We have to face facts guys, El Miz will not be an Orient player in a few weeks.
We don’t have the funds/budget to sign him.
Be a huge loss to our team!

Unless Ipswich price him too high and no-one bites, best case scenario

What about the player himself . He's going to need to want to go . Can a player say" No thanks " ?