Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Almost past caring. Our outgoings are pretty much outstripping our income right now despite both being on a decent whack and Labour have, so far, made it perfectly clear they won't do a single thing to reverse that situation so may as well shrug and vote TUSC or someone who doesn't hold me in contempt.

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:35 am So what’s the alternative?

I don't know, maybe something like this https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2017.pdf but with all Labour staff and MPs actually supporting it and trying to win an election.

Yeah, I mean it’s gone past the point where I can say “at the very least it’ll be slightly better than the Tories” because for a lot of people it really won’t, and this time without the hope that it’ll get better.
There’s distancing yourself from the previous leader, then there’s this…

Harold Wilson, one of the more successful leaders of Labour ( at least he got re-elected again & again ); was considered a left-winger & a bit of a rebel. Yet when he was Premier he steered a cautious path. He had a lot to put up with from the Media & Establishment. There were a lot of smears & innuendos. Even a farcical attempt at a coup! I remember when he suddenly resigned as PM, the gossip mill was on overdrive. I remember my cousin saying " Oh! There is going to be a massive scandal". The reality was, the ole boy realised that had early onset Alzheimer's & unlike Mr Churchill, he cleared the decks. In my opinion a very noble thing to do.
This is the context of the path Sir Keir is taking. Just remember what Corbyn did. He never showed any loyalty to the Party, abstained & voted against the Whip time after time; . and where did his leadership get us? Reality check needed one year out from a General Election. Or do we all want another 20 years of the Tory crooks?

If only people didn't do things we don't like, and did things we do like, and the electoral system was completely different, Labour might have won in 2017.

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:44 am If only Labour HQ hadn't worked against the Labour leadership in a deliberate attempt to lose the election, Labour would have won in 2017.

Fixed that for you.

Friend or faux wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:43 am Harold Wilson, one of the more successful leaders of Labour ( at least he got re-elected again & again ); was considered a left-winger & a bit of a rebel. Yet when he was Premier he steered a cautious path. He had a lot to put up with from the Media & Establishment. There were a lot of smears & innuendos. Even a farcical attempt at a coup! I remember when he suddenly resigned as PM, the gossip mill was on overdrive. I remember my cousin saying " Oh! There is going to be a massive scandal". The reality was, the ole boy realised that had early onset Alzheimer's & unlike Mr Churchill, he cleared the decks. In my opinion a very noble thing to do.
This is the context of the path Sir Keir is taking. Just remember what Corbyn did. He never showed any loyalty to the Party, abstained & voted against the Whip time after time; . and where did his leadership get us? Reality check needed one year out from a General Election. Or do we all want another 20 years of the Tory crooks?

Sir Kid Starver has Alzheimer's?

TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 10:01 am

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:44 am If only Labour HQ hadn't worked against the Labour leadership in a deliberate attempt to lose the election, Labour would have won in 2017.

Fixed that for you.

Which is in itself a consequence of the electoral system. FPTP pretty much compels any parliament into a two-party system, with each being a broad coalition that is ripe for internal divisions and squabbles.

Stuff happened that was always going to happen, and should have been anticipated as part of any strategy. But wasn't.

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 10:14 am

TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 10:01 am

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:44 am If only Labour HQ hadn't worked against the Labour leadership in a deliberate attempt to lose the election, Labour would have won in 2017.

Fixed that for you.

Which is in itself a consequence of the electoral system. FPTP pretty much compels any parliament into a two-party system, with each being a broad coalition that is ripe for internal divisions and squabbles.

Stuff happened that was always going to happen, and should have been anticipated as part of any strategy. But wasn't.

Bit of a difference between 'squabbles' and actively plotting against your own party to make sure you lose and the opposition win.

Friend or faux wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:43 am Harold Wilson, one of the more successful leaders of Labour ( at least he got re-elected again & again ); was considered a left-winger & a bit of a rebel. Yet when he was Premier he steered a cautious path. He had a lot to put up with from the Media & Establishment. There were a lot of smears & innuendos. Even a farcical attempt at a coup! I remember when he suddenly resigned as PM, the gossip mill was on overdrive. I remember my cousin saying " Oh! There is going to be a massive scandal". The reality was, the ole boy realised that had early onset Alzheimer's & unlike Mr Churchill, he cleared the decks. In my opinion a very noble thing to do.
This is the context of the path Sir Keir is taking. Just remember what Corbyn did. He never showed any loyalty to the Party, abstained & voted against the Whip time after time; . and where did his leadership get us? Reality check needed one year out from a General Election. Or do we all want another 20 years of the Tory crooks?

There was a wonderful* dissertation written on this subject by an ace* historian. But I fear Nottingham Trent are part of the establishment conspiracy and chucked it in the bin as soon as my back was turned to prevent the truth getting out.

I'm so gagging for PR I'd vote UKIP if there was binding promise in their manifesto for it. What is irritating is that Labour will never back it as they would rather be in opposition for most of the time than in power as the largest party in a centre left coalition for the same periods instead.

The only person I dislike more than Starmer, is myself for knowing I'll have to vote for him (or more correctly for the South London tosser that's been parachuted into this constituency).

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:30 am How enthused the electorate will be by the guy in the red tie telling us better things aren't possible but give him a turn anyway.

All hail the UniParty and democracy.

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:43 am Yeah, I mean it’s gone past the point where I can say “at the very least it’ll be slightly better than the Tories” because for a lot of people it really won’t, and this time without the hope that it’ll get better.
There’s distancing yourself from the previous leader, then there’s this…

You've changed your tune. Are you now going to be a Tory enabler?

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 10:02 am
Sir Kid Starver

First time I have seen this

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 10:14 am

TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 10:01 am

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:44 am If only Labour HQ hadn't worked against the Labour leadership in a deliberate attempt to lose the election, Labour would have won in 2017.

Fixed that for you.

Which is in itself a consequence of the electoral system. FPTP pretty much compels any parliament into a two-party system, with each being a broad coalition that is ripe for internal divisions and squabbles.

Stuff happened that was always going to happen, and should have been anticipated as part of any strategy. But wasn't.

Few believed the Labour Party would be taken over by Tories draping themselves in the Butchers Apron.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 5:05 am So you accept labour aren't a credible alternative but you'd still take them every day of the week?

That’s not what I said and you know it.

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:43 am Yeah, I mean it’s gone past the point where I can say “at the very least it’ll be slightly better than the Tories” because for a lot of people it really won’t, and this time without the hope that it’ll get better.
There’s distancing yourself from the previous leader, then there’s this…

“Gone past the point …”

How so?

Evidence please.

You want evidence to demonstrate that I believe that the direction of the Labour Party has gone past a point where I find them to be meaningfully better than the alternative?
Mate, you don’t have to agree with me. If you’re happy with it, then I’m glad for you.

Preposterous Joe said:- Sir Kid Starver has Alzheimer's?

I say:- Are you really that stupid?

Friend or faux wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 12:07 pm Preposterous Joe said:- Sir Kid Starver has Alzheimer's?

I say:- Are you really that stupid?

Personally, I'd learn to use Reply With Quote before questioning someone else's intelligence.

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:43 am Yeah, I mean it’s gone past the point where I can say “at the very least it’ll be slightly better than the Tories” because for a lot of people it really won’t, and this time without the hope that it’ll get better.
There’s distancing yourself from the previous leader, then there’s this…

The thing I don’t really get is that they don’t really need to do a lot to get into power considering how the current lot have f*cked up. It’s possibly the only time in our lives where Labour have a bit of free rein to be a genuine alternative and still get traditional Tory votes. Instead they’ve gone the other way on a desperate craving for power and to keep donors and ceos happy. Bizarre state of politics we have now

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 12:37 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:43 am Yeah, I mean it’s gone past the point where I can say “at the very least it’ll be slightly better than the Tories” because for a lot of people it really won’t, and this time without the hope that it’ll get better.
There’s distancing yourself from the previous leader, then there’s this…

The thing I don’t really get is that they don’t really need to do a lot to get into power considering how the current lot have f*cked up. It’s possibly the only time in our lives where Labour have a bit of free rein to be a genuine alternative and still get traditional Tory votes. Instead they’ve gone the other way on a desperate craving for power and to keep donors and ceos happy. Bizarre state of politics we have now

Not really.

They have to convince swing voters in the marginal constituencies to vote for them or they simply will not get enough seats to form a government. And those swing voters can be easily swayed to not vote for them if anything they say or do could be spun as sounding a bit like...er, Labour. They are exactly the kind of voters who prioritise stopping the boats over nationalising public utilities.

And then there's Scotland. Unless the Scotch are going to ditch the SNP and return to labour (and not go Tory, which they have been prone to do in the past), Labour are entirely dependant on English Tory-light constituencies turning red. Basically, Kier Starmer has to somehow figure out how to get beradogs to vote for him.

So Labour have a lot to do. They also have to be ruthless about anything they say or do as, anything that sounds too appealing to their core vote, is likely to be off-putting to the voters they need to attract.

And there's the problem - Everything any senior Labour politician does or says right now has been calibrated for a Tory-light swing voter, not a Labour voter (and definitely not a Labour member). It's called an election strategy. It may or may not work, but at least they have one.

The result is a very cynical and uninspiring message, with the core vote/membership feeling like it's been abandoned. But they've calculated that it's their best chance at achieving power.

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 12:37 pm The thing I don’t really get is that they don’t really need to do a lot to get into power considering how the current lot have f*cked up. It’s possibly the only time in our lives where Labour have a bit of free rein to be a genuine alternative and still get traditional Tory votes. Instead they’ve gone the other way on a desperate craving for power and to keep donors and ceos happy. Bizarre state of politics we have now

Someone will be along in a minute to tell you that this is what happens when the grown ups take over and get tactical, doing what's necessary to secure electoral victory.....

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 12:37 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:43 am Yeah, I mean it’s gone past the point where I can say “at the very least it’ll be slightly better than the Tories” because for a lot of people it really won’t, and this time without the hope that it’ll get better.
There’s distancing yourself from the previous leader, then there’s this…

The thing I don’t really get is that they don’t really need to do a lot to get into power considering how the current lot have f*cked up. It’s possibly the only time in our lives where Labour have a bit of free rein to be a genuine alternative and still get traditional Tory votes. Instead they’ve gone the other way on a desperate craving for power and to keep donors and ceos happy. Bizarre state of politics we have now

When theyve been burned before doing that , They're not likely to blow a massive lead being Labour , only for the public to be conned by a Turn out the lights front cover again

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:01 pm
And there's the problem - Everything any senior Labour politician does or says right now has been calibrated for a Tory-light swing voter, not a Labour voter (and definitely not a Labour member). It's called an election strategy. It may or may not work, but at least they have one.

Case in point.

Here's every lefty's favourite economist commenting on what he perceives to be a stupid comment from a Labour shadow minister. To be fair, it is a stupid comment. But Lucy Powel isn't thinking about how her words are received by Richard Murphy, but instead by Gary and Maureen from Harlow.

Gary and Maureen from Harlow may be a bit thick, but there's more of them than there are Richard Murphys and they are duplicated in greater number in constituencies where just about enough of them might vote for Labour (or at least not vote for the Tories).

Now, Richard Murphy either understands that, in which case he's just a grifter playing a disingenuous game when he provides his commentary (which is correct, by the way). Or he doesn't understand that, in which case he may not be as smart as he thinks he is.

So the strategy is to just be tories?

How's that going for the tories right now?