Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Wed May 17, 2023 12:11 pm**

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 12:03 pm
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 11:57 am
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 11:37 am neither of which do that much for lower middle class types who are increasingly the ones stuffed and the most likely to move abroad when they realise what a rip off housing here is.
Where are these lower middle class types going to move to?
Abroad. Anecdotal but a lot of my age group who fit that bill are looking at emigrating because the cost of living here is ridiculous, the economy is tanking and they have skills that are in demand elsewhere.

Not sure what age you are but 3 of my kids are at University and moving abroad is the talk of many of their friends. They don't see the UK as a place they want to live in.

Also, one is studying at SOAS in London where they have a large number of international students. Now in their 2nd year, those that had thoughts before of working in the UK after graduating, have changed their minds.

Posted: **Wed May 17, 2023 12:13 pm**

The housing crisis is now so far gone that there are no longer any simple solutions. Even solutions that make sense will involve severe short to medium term pain. I’m involved in this as part of my day job, and I can tell you that neither party is even able to fully grasp the scale and complexity of the problem, never mind try and fix it.

The most senior politician in recent times who came closest to fully getting their head around it was... (and I kid you not)... Theresa May.

For what it’s worth, this is what I think needs to happen. It will be an absolute sh*tshow and everyone will hate me for it, but 20 to 25 years from now I’ll be regarded as a saint.

Increase barriers to foreign ownership of UK properties, whereby the holding companies are in offshore tax havens and hidden behind nominee directors. Neither Labour or Tories will do this, as the US banking and investment sector is piling in big time.

Target taxation to blunt house price growth and claw back on the ridiculous levels of unearned wealth through asset price inflation. The average home should not be earning more per year than the average worker. Guaranteed vote loser.

Lower thresholds at which Capital Gains Tax becomes payable (and increase the amount payable) to disincentivise second-home ownership. The IEA et al will properly kick off about this.

Invest in private rental sector (PRS) Build to Rent partnership schemes delivered through institutional landlords, using grant to hold them to public housing regulations. This gives private capital an opportunity to benefit too, whilst being held to account for standards and performance.

Massively invest in new social housing to be delivered by local authorities and Housing Associations. Proper commie stuff.

Above two points to be central to a housing strategy that reduces the dependency on amateur BTL landlords. That is madness.

Legislate for "use it or lose it" rules on private developers, to be enforced by local authorities.

Repeal Right to Buy. The Daily Mail will have a fit.

Abolish Section 21. The BTL sector will have a fit.

Introduce a Decent Homes standard for the PRS. The BTL sector will implode.

Provide local authorities with powers to enforce Decent Homes standards on PRS.

Bring Building Control back into public ownership and repeal the legislation that makes it immune to prosecution.

Remove all demand-side incentives (i.e. Help to Buy).

Review the planning process by all means, but be careful about wishing for developers to have free reign to build what they want where they want. It wont be those golf courses that go, it will be your local playing fields.

All of the above needs to be gradually phased in over at least a ten-year period, if not longer, to allow sectors and economies to adjust.

Posted: **Wed May 17, 2023 12:25 pm**

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 12:13 pm The housing crisis is now so far gone that there are no longer any simple solutions. Even solutions that make sense will involve severe short to medium term pain. I’m involved in this as part of my day job, and I can tell you that neither party is even able to fully grasp the scale and complexity of the problem, never mind try and fix it.

The most senior politician in recent times who came closest to fully getting their head around it was... (and I kid you not)... Theresa May.

For what it’s worth, this is what I think needs to happen. It will be an absolute sh*tshow and everyone will hate me for it, but 20 to 25 years from now I’ll be regarded as a saint.

Increase barriers to foreign ownership of UK properties, whereby the holding companies are in offshore tax havens and hidden behind nominee directors. Neither Labour or Tories will do this, as the US banking and investment sector is piling in big time.

Target taxation to blunt house price growth and claw back on the ridiculous levels of unearned wealth through asset price inflation. The average home should not be earning more per year than the average worker. Guaranteed vote loser.

Lower thresholds at which Capital Gains Tax becomes payable (and increase the amount payable) to disincentivise second-home ownership. The IEA et al will properly kick off about this.

Invest in private rental sector (PRS) Build to Rent partnership schemes delivered through institutional landlords, using grant to hold them to public housing regulations. This gives private capital an opportunity to benefit too, whilst being held to account for standards and performance.

Massively invest in new social housing to be delivered by local authorities and Housing Associations. Proper commie stuff.

Above two points to be central to a housing strategy that reduces the dependency on amateur BTL landlords. That is madness.

Legislate for "use it or lose it" rules on private developers, to be enforced by local authorities.

Repeal Right to Buy. The Daily Mail will have a fit.

Abolish Section 21. The BTL sector will have a fit.

Introduce a Decent Homes standard for the PRS. The BTL sector will implode.

Provide local authorities with powers to enforce Decent Homes standards on PRS.

Bring Building Control back into public ownership and repeal the legislation that makes it immune to prosecution.

Remove all demand-side incentives (i.e. Help to Buy).

Review the planning process by all means, but be careful about wishing for developers to have free reign to build what they want where they want. It wont be those golf courses that go, it will be your local playing fields.

All of the above needs to be gradually phased in over at least a ten-year period, if not longer, to allow sectors and economies to adjust.

All makes perfect sense but "stopping the boats" is a much easier solution to sell

Posted: **Wed May 17, 2023 12:29 pm**

^Also, make a proportion of public housing available for people who would not otherwise qualify through means testing. A cross section of society living there will help to remove the stigma and prevent these places from descending into sink estates.

Also, also, make it a legal requirement that all blocks of flats must come with a fully-costed (using 30-year CapEx plans) capital reserve fund to cover future reinvestment works. That will see a natural downward pressure on land values as the true housing cost becomes more visible and has to be allowed for in those initial appraisals.

Posted: **Wed May 17, 2023 12:53 pm**

Vote for Dunnem

Posted: **Wed May 17, 2023 2:11 pm**

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 12:13 pm The housing crisis is now so far gone that there are no longer any simple solutions. Even solutions that make sense will involve severe short to medium term pain. I’m involved in this as part of my day job, and I can tell you that neither party is even able to fully grasp the scale and complexity of the problem, never mind try and fix it.

The most senior politician in recent times who came closest to fully getting their head around it was... (and I kid you not)... Theresa May.

For what it’s worth, this is what I think needs to happen. It will be an absolute sh*tshow and everyone will hate me for it, but 20 to 25 years from now I’ll be regarded as a saint.

Increase barriers to foreign ownership of UK properties, whereby the holding companies are in offshore tax havens and hidden behind nominee directors. Neither Labour or Tories will do this, as the US banking and investment sector is piling in big time.

Target taxation to blunt house price growth and claw back on the ridiculous levels of unearned wealth through asset price inflation. The average home should not be earning more per year than the average worker. Guaranteed vote loser.

Lower thresholds at which Capital Gains Tax becomes payable (and increase the amount payable) to disincentivise second-home ownership. The IEA et al will properly kick off about this.

Invest in private rental sector (PRS) Build to Rent partnership schemes delivered through institutional landlords, using grant to hold them to public housing regulations. This gives private capital an opportunity to benefit too, whilst being held to account for standards and performance.

Massively invest in new social housing to be delivered by local authorities and Housing Associations. Proper commie stuff.

Above two points to be central to a housing strategy that reduces the dependency on amateur BTL landlords. That is madness.

Legislate for "use it or lose it" rules on private developers, to be enforced by local authorities.

Repeal Right to Buy. The Daily Mail will have a fit.

Abolish Section 21. The BTL sector will have a fit.

Introduce a Decent Homes standard for the PRS. The BTL sector will implode.

Provide local authorities with powers to enforce Decent Homes standards on PRS.

Bring Building Control back into public ownership and repeal the legislation that makes it immune to prosecution.

Remove all demand-side incentives (i.e. Help to Buy).

Review the planning process by all means, but be careful about wishing for developers to have free reign to build what they want where they want. It wont be those golf courses that go, it will be your local playing fields.

All of the above needs to be gradually phased in over at least a ten-year period, if not longer, to allow sectors and economies to adjust.

We could achieve all this if we made profiteering illegal.

Posted: **Wed May 17, 2023 2:13 pm**

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 12:13 pm The housing crisis is now so far gone that there are no longer any simple solutions. Even solutions that make sense will involve severe short to medium term pain. I’m involved in this as part of my day job, and I can tell you that neither party is even able to fully grasp the scale and complexity of the problem, never mind try and fix it.

The most senior politician in recent times who came closest to fully getting their head around it was... (and I kid you not)... Theresa May.

For what it’s worth, this is what I think needs to happen. It will be an absolute sh*tshow and everyone will hate me for it, but 20 to 25 years from now I’ll be regarded as a saint.

Increase barriers to foreign ownership of UK properties, whereby the holding companies are in offshore tax havens and hidden behind nominee directors. Neither Labour or Tories will do this, as the US banking and investment sector is piling in big time.

Target taxation to blunt house price growth and claw back on the ridiculous levels of unearned wealth through asset price inflation. The average home should not be earning more per year than the average worker. Guaranteed vote loser.

Lower thresholds at which Capital Gains Tax becomes payable (and increase the amount payable) to disincentivise second-home ownership. The IEA et al will properly kick off about this.

Invest in private rental sector (PRS) Build to Rent partnership schemes delivered through institutional landlords, using grant to hold them to public housing regulations. This gives private capital an opportunity to benefit too, whilst being held to account for standards and performance.

Massively invest in new social housing to be delivered by local authorities and Housing Associations. Proper commie stuff.

Above two points to be central to a housing strategy that reduces the dependency on amateur BTL landlords. That is madness.

Legislate for "use it or lose it" rules on private developers, to be enforced by local authorities.

Repeal Right to Buy. The Daily Mail will have a fit.

Abolish Section 21. The BTL sector will have a fit.

Introduce a Decent Homes standard for the PRS. The BTL sector will implode.

Provide local authorities with powers to enforce Decent Homes standards on PRS.

Bring Building Control back into public ownership and repeal the legislation that makes it immune to prosecution.

Remove all demand-side incentives (i.e. Help to Buy).

Review the planning process by all means, but be careful about wishing for developers to have free reign to build what they want where they want. It wont be those golf courses that go, it will be your local playing fields.

All of the above needs to be gradually phased in over at least a ten-year period, if not longer, to allow sectors and economies to adjust.

This all sounds very sensible. Where did you C&P it from?

Posted: **Wed May 17, 2023 2:19 pm**

I heard on the radio this morning that Starmer will give the go ahead to build on green belt land . Ermmm….yeah , that’s a real vote winner.

Posted: **Wed May 17, 2023 2:22 pm**

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 12:03 pm
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 11:57 am
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 11:37 am neither of which do that much for lower middle class types who are increasingly the ones stuffed and the most likely to move abroad when they realise what a rip off housing here is.
Where are these lower middle class types going to move to?
Abroad. Anecdotal but a lot of my age group who fit that bill are looking at emigrating because the cost of living here is ridiculous, the economy is tanking and they have skills that are in demand elsewhere.

Are you and your friends lower middle class?

Posted: **Wed May 17, 2023 2:26 pm**

The Mindsweep wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 11:59 am The whole housing model in this country is unsustainable. In reality it was only a short period of between the mid 60's to around 2009 when owing a home was at least possible for most. This period is well and truly over. We now have a property owning minority, which is ageing, and governments who are still focusing on policy that was for that era. When people on relatively good incomes are struggling to even find accommodation to rent, on many occasions sharing the properties with friends and colleagues, let alone being in a position to buy then there is a big problem. At some point affordability will end and after a short period where it seems that housing becomes more affordable when property prices fall, as soon as costs rise again then it will collapse like a stone. Big problem, but it's coming.

It won't collapse because the wealthy keep on getting wealthier and have to stick all their money somewhere.

Posted: **Wed May 17, 2023 3:33 pm**

TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 2:26 pm
The Mindsweep wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 11:59 am The whole housing model in this country is unsustainable. In reality it was only a short period of between the mid 60's to around 2009 when owing a home was at least possible for most. This period is well and truly over. We now have a property owning minority, which is ageing, and governments who are still focusing on policy that was for that era. When people on relatively good incomes are struggling to even find accommodation to rent, on many occasions sharing the properties with friends and colleagues, let alone being in a position to buy then there is a big problem. At some point affordability will end and after a short period where it seems that housing becomes more affordable when property prices fall, as soon as costs rise again then it will collapse like a stone. Big problem, but it's coming.
It won't collapse because the wealthy keep on getting wealthier and have to stick all their money somewhere.

They will, but not over here. The financial losers will be the ones that thought that buying a property to live in, or a few more to rent out, was always going to work. In reality they will just join the people who never got to own a property in the first place. Those who have and have always had vast wealth, will look for other ways to exploit and make more

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 9:50 am**

TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 11:57 am
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 11:37 am neither of which do that much for lower middle class types who are increasingly the ones stuffed and the most likely to move abroad when they realise what a rip off housing here is.
Where are these lower middle class types going to move to?

Based on current trends, it's entirely probable that the UK could begin to experience an exodus of skills and labour. I'd explain why, but rather than do my usual C&P job, here's the article: https://thecritic.co.uk/Callaghans-Island/

It makes for grim reading, especially for those of us with kids.

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 10:02 am**

OH and I currently having Big Chats about emigrating (well, me emigrating and her going closer to home). There's an obvious pull due to her fam being on the other side of the globe but there's also an obvious push in that this place is a bin fire.

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 10:11 am**

2/3 have gone abroad already. The 21 year old (left the country a year ago). Was doing a nursing apprenticeship / now in USA and Canada, holding working visas in both. Won’t be coming back. The other a teacher, ‘jacked it’ last year to teach abroad.

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 10:45 am**

I'm increasingly hearing similar stuff. Our 2 are both studying for careers that could easily see them move abroad. Our eldest has work placements with companies that openly boast to UK graduates that they're a gateway to international posts.

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 10:52 am**

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 9:50 am
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 11:57 am
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 11:37 am neither of which do that much for lower middle class types who are increasingly the ones stuffed and the most likely to move abroad when they realise what a rip off housing here is.
Where are these lower middle class types going to move to?
Based on current trends, it's entirely probable that the UK could begin to experience an exodus of skills and labour. I'd explain why, but rather than do my usual C&P job, here's the article: https://thecritic.co.uk/Callaghans-Island/

It makes for grim reading, especially for those of us with kids.

Reduce taxes and they'll stay, apparently.

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 10:53 am**

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 10:45 am I'm increasingly hearing similar stuff. Our 2 are both studying for careers that could easily see them move abroad. Our eldest has work placements with companies that openly boast to UK graduates that they're a gateway to international posts.

Don't tell me you're trying to cling on to the 'lower-middle class' tag as well, FFS?

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 10:59 am**

In the past the rich "parasites" acted like parasites do, they fed well off the living entity - in this case that means all of us in the UK - but ensured that the living entity remained well enough so it could continue feeding indefinitely.

Looking at where we are now, it appears to me that the rich elite parasites have decided to have a final feast before moving on to pastures new, akin to a biblical swarm of locusts, leaving the UK ravaged and terminally damaged. Happy days!

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 11:14 am**

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 10:59 am In the past the rich "parasites" acted like parasites do, they fed well off the living entity - in this case that means all of us in the UK - but ensured that the living entity remained well enough so it could continue feeding indefinitely.

Looking at where we are now, it appears to me that the rich elite parasites have decided to have a final feast before moving on to pastures new, akin to a biblical swarm of locusts, leaving the UK ravaged and terminally damaged. Happy days!

The capitalist feast would never have been able to continue indefinitely.

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 11:23 am**

TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:14 am
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 10:59 am In the past the rich "parasites" acted like parasites do, they fed well off the living entity - in this case that means all of us in the UK - but ensured that the living entity remained well enough so it could continue feeding indefinitely.

Looking at where we are now, it appears to me that the rich elite parasites have decided to have a final feast before moving on to pastures new, akin to a biblical swarm of locusts, leaving the UK ravaged and terminally damaged. Happy days!
The capitalist feast would never have been able to continue indefinitely.

Everything is relative, but at the moment the greedy rich are stripping the UK to the bone, and in full view of all of us. Services, living conditions, transport infrastructure, housing, state of our roads ad infinitum - all going downhill at a lickity split. It would cost a fortune to get us back to where we were even 10-15 years ago. The Country has been raped by the rich with the absolute complicity of the Government.

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 11:42 am**

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 10:45 am I'm increasingly hearing similar stuff. Our 2 are both studying for careers that could easily see them move abroad. Our eldest has work placements with companies that openly boast to UK graduates that they're a gateway to international posts.

Why are you talking about here ? Please keep this to current Labour watch Issues not tittle tattle & something mentioned in 1974 !! Thanks

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 11:44 am**

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:23 am
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:14 am
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 10:59 am In the past the rich "parasites" acted like parasites do, they fed well off the living entity - in this case that means all of us in the UK - but ensured that the living entity remained well enough so it could continue feeding indefinitely.

Looking at where we are now, it appears to me that the rich elite parasites have decided to have a final feast before moving on to pastures new, akin to a biblical swarm of locusts, leaving the UK ravaged and terminally damaged. Happy days!
The capitalist feast would never have been able to continue indefinitely.
Everything is relative, but at the moment the greedy rich are stripping the UK to the bone, and in full view of all of us. Services, living conditions, transport infrastructure, housing, state of our roads ad infinitum - all going downhill at a lickity split. It would cost a fortune to get us back to where we were even 10-15 years ago. The Country has been raped by the rich with the absolute complicity of the Government.

Why on LW & Not TW ? Come on people !

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 11:49 am**

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:44 am
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:23 am
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:14 am

The capitalist feast would never have been able to continue indefinitely.
Everything is relative, but at the moment the greedy rich are stripping the UK to the bone, and in full view of all of us. Services, living conditions, transport infrastructure, housing, state of our roads ad infinitum - all going downhill at a lickity split. It would cost a fortune to get us back to where we were even 10-15 years ago. The Country has been raped by the rich with the absolute complicity of the Government.
Why on LW & Not TW ? Come on people !

I'm not seeing Labour falling over themselves to address these issues.

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 11:51 am**

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:49 am
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:44 am
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:23 am

Everything is relative, but at the moment the greedy rich are stripping the UK to the bone, and in full view of all of us. Services, living conditions, transport infrastructure, housing, state of our roads ad infinitum - all going downhill at a lickity split. It would cost a fortune to get us back to where we were even 10-15 years ago. The Country has been raped by the rich with the absolute complicity of the Government.
Why on LW & Not TW ? Come on people !
I'm not seeing Labour falling over themselves to address these issues.

Issues caused by whom ?

Posted: **Thu May 18, 2023 11:54 am**

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:51 am
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:49 am
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 11:44 am

Why on LW & Not TW ? Come on people !
I'm not seeing Labour falling over themselves to address these issues.
Issues caused by whom ?

Bad people.

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