Independent Leyton Orient Forum

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:54 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:50 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:38 pm Many thanks for the robust discussion just now but it does seem that the only way to get rid of the Tories at the next election is to Vote Labour.

Great. And replace them with their 2nd XI. The country is utterly f*cked, screaming out for progressive government and the best option is a supposed socialist democratic party that has spent the last 3 years punching leftwards, announcing various crackdowns and basically offering to be slightly more efficient Tories.

Sorry, but I'm not playing. To vote Labour would be accepting them in their current guise. They've spent 3 years telling people like me to f*** off. So I'm doing as they want and f*cking off. And don't even bother with the Tory enabler bollocks. If more voters were prepared to reject the current state of play by not voting for either party, both of them might finally consider doing something worthwhile with the power their given, rather than just having power for the sake of it.

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:59 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:54 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:50 pm

Great. And replace them with their 2nd XI. The country is utterly f*cked, screaming out for progressive government and the best option is a supposed socialist democratic party that has spent the last 3 years punching leftwards, announcing various crackdowns and basically offering to be slightly more efficient Tories.

Sorry, but I'm not playing. To vote Labour would be accepting them in their current guise. They've spent 3 years telling people like me to f*** off. So I'm doing as they want and f*cking off. And don't even bother with the Tory enabler bollocks. If more voters were prepared to reject the current state of play by not voting for either party, both of them might finally consider doing something worthwhile with the power their given, rather than just having power for the sake of it.

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Its not petty politics within the Labour Party that is at issue. It is the capture of economic, political and civil institutions by the prophets of neo liberal economics for the last 40 years. Your electoral arguments starts from the assumption that you seem happy with the economic system and a superficial argument follows on from that.

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:07 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:54 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:50 pm

Great. And replace them with their 2nd XI. The country is utterly f*cked, screaming out for progressive government and the best option is a supposed socialist democratic party that has spent the last 3 years punching leftwards, announcing various crackdowns and basically offering to be slightly more efficient Tories.

Sorry, but I'm not playing. To vote Labour would be accepting them in their current guise. They've spent 3 years telling people like me to f*** off. So I'm doing as they want and f*cking off. And don't even bother with the Tory enabler bollocks. If more voters were prepared to reject the current state of play by not voting for either party, both of them might finally consider doing something worthwhile with the power their given, rather than just having power for the sake of it.

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:09 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:59 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:54 pm

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Its not petty politics within the Labour Party that is at issue. It is the capture of economic, political and civil institutions by the prophets of neo liberal economics for the last 40 years. Your electoral arguments starts from the assumption that you seem happy with the economic system and a superficial argument follows on from that.

Nope. I've intimated that I'd welcome change, both in the behaviour and format of the Labour Party. The systemic changes you allude to, with regard to Economic policies sound interesting but will they be in place before the next election? If not, then as my biggest desire is to get rid of the Tories, I will vote Labour as the only viable method to get rid of the filth.

And yes, it is petty politics within the Labour Party that is at issue. Simplistically, because there are many positions between left and right, if the Right in the party sat down with the Left (and probably had their heads banged together) then maybe, just maybe they might find a core of beliefs/policies that they could agree on. They'd have to leave their ego's outside the meeting room to do so of course. If they could agree on a core of beliefs then then could work together (imagine....) from that base and actually act like a single Party - ooerr. There would be sh*t-loads they didn't agree on I'm sure and a need for compromise from both sides. They basically need to act like adults and not pre-pubescent schoolkids.

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:07 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:54 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:50 pm

Great. And replace them with their 2nd XI. The country is utterly f*cked, screaming out for progressive government and the best option is a supposed socialist democratic party that has spent the last 3 years punching leftwards, announcing various crackdowns and basically offering to be slightly more efficient Tories.

Sorry, but I'm not playing. To vote Labour would be accepting them in their current guise. They've spent 3 years telling people like me to f*** off. So I'm doing as they want and f*cking off. And don't even bother with the Tory enabler bollocks. If more voters were prepared to reject the current state of play by not voting for either party, both of them might finally consider doing something worthwhile with the power their given, rather than just having power for the sake of it.

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

My only answer is a new political party in conjunction with the unions. I'm not going to claim to be bright enough to have answers beyond this - what I do know is that the current system is f*cked for all but an exclusive few.

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:16 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:09 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:59 pm

Its not petty politics within the Labour Party that is at issue. It is the capture of economic, political and civil institutions by the prophets of neo liberal economics for the last 40 years. Your electoral arguments starts from the assumption that you seem happy with the economic system and a superficial argument follows on from that.

Nope. I've intimated that I'd welcome change, both in the behaviour and format of the Labour Party. The systemic changes you allude to, with regard to Economic policies sound interesting but will they be in place before the next election? If not, then as my biggest desire is to get rid of the Tories, I will vote Labour as the only viable method to get rid of the filth.

And yes, it is petty politics within the Labour Party that is at issue. Simplistically, because there are many positions between left and right, if the Right in the party sat down with the Left (and probably had their heads banged together) then maybe, just maybe they might find a core of beliefs/policies that they could agree on. They'd have to leave their ego's outside the meeting room to do so of course. If they could agree on a core of beliefs then then could work together (imagine....) from that base and actually act like a single Party - ooerr. There would be sh*t-loads they didn't agree on I'm sure and a need for compromise from both sides. They basically need to act like adults and not pre-pubescent schoolkids.

You think the Labour party's issues are around petty politics? You seriously haven't noticed the non-stop purge of anyone with mildly left of centre tendencies? If Starmer could de-select the 30 odd SCG MP's, he'd do it tomorrow.

f*** me - you been spending time with Prez Business? Your patter is seriously reminiscent.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:15 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:07 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:54 pm

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:15 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:07 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:54 pm

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:20 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:15 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:07 pm

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

You are seriously now proving my point from my last post above. The left of the party have spent the last 3 years being purged. And yet the left should still engage?

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:24 pm It's always the left need to grow up and work with the right, isn't it? Don't recall all the sensible people telling the Labour right to grow up and work with the Left when Corbyn and McDonnell held the whip hand and tried to implement their agenda. No, at that time it was 'sensible' for the Labour right to do their utmost to sabotage the whole thing for the greater good.

It's always one way.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:26 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:20 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:15 pm

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

You are seriously now proving my point from my last post above. The left of the party have spent the last 3 years being purged. And yet the left should still engage?

If the Left really can't engage, and can't articulate why they need to engage, with the Right, for the sake of the Labour Party and the Country, then why don't they break away and form their own party. Why stay with Labour?

Personally, I'd hate to see this as it would just divide voters even more and, most likely, ensure a succession of Tory governments.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:22 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:15 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:07 pm

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

Oh come on reducing the political differences to personality flaws just adds an element of infantalism to your already superficial defence of Labour.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:28 pm It was a genuine question which I hoped might prompt some reflection, but no, just a Centrist Dad 101 response.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:24 pm It's always the left need to grow up and work with the right, isn't it? Don't recall all the sensible people telling the Labour right to grow up and work with the Left when Corbyn and McDonnell held the whip hand and tried to implement their agenda. No, at that time it was 'sensible' for the Labour right to do their utmost to sabotage the whole thing for the greater good.

It's always one way.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:26 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:20 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:15 pm

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

You are seriously now proving my point from my last post above. The left of the party have spent the last 3 years being purged. And yet the left should still engage?

If the Left really can't engage, and can't articulate why they need to engage, with the Right, for the sake of the Labour Party and the Country, then why don't they break away and form their own party. Why stay with Labour?

Personally, I'd hate to see this as it would just divide voters even more and, most likely, ensure a succession of Tory governments.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:33 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:22 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:15 pm

Hehe - I've been told to f*** off before mate. I'll live. I know about the shortcomings of the current parties thanks. I want these issues fixed too but they 100% won't be if we allow the Tories to remain in power. With Labour there is a chance we'll see improvement. But we need the left of the party to engage with the right and vice versa. Too many bruised egos affecting the whole of the Country. Pathetic.

I won't tell you to F*** off in return, as I prefer to argue a point.

Oh come on reducing the political differences to personality flaws just adds an element of infantalism to your already superficial defence of Labour.

Possibly Max. But so much of the issues within the Labour Party are because tossers - from Right and Left - are entrenched and incapable of listening to or caring about anything other than their own outlook. There needs to be compromise and a common aim for the whole Party. Unless their personal goals are more important of course. Even with all this sh*t within the Labour Party, they'll still get my vote, such is the cancer that is the Tory Party.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:34 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:26 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:20 pm

You are seriously now proving my point from my last post above. The left of the party have spent the last 3 years being purged. And yet the left should still engage?

If the Left really can't engage, and can't articulate why they need to engage, with the Right, for the sake of the Labour Party and the Country, then why don't they break away and form their own party. Why stay with Labour?

Personally, I'd hate to see this as it would just divide voters even more and, most likely, ensure a succession of Tory governments.

You shouldn't assume that a divided vote necessarily returns the Tories and that is even before the case for PR is made.

The Labour Party does not represent the interests of working people and more people are realising it.

In Scotland many Labour stalwarts realised this and moved their vote to a slightly progressive neo liberal alternative in the SNP. That was a ground breaking shift.

There is no reason to believe that a new socialist party in England would not achieve simular electoral success in "heartlands"

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:17 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:07 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:54 pm

Great. Roll on another 4 years (and the rest) of the Tories. All because of petty politics within the Labour Party. Pathetic.

Good to see you're not prepared to engage with the point I'm making. What you centerists dads seem to want is for anyone on the left to basically be told to f*** off, and then come election time, just loyally stick a cross in a box for Labour again. Oh and once that's done, f*** off again please.

Not sure of your circumstances but due to the state of this country, my kids will be lucky to be able to rent a property - forget owning one. If my youngest even considered university, he'll be saddled with massive debt for something that was freely available to me.

The NHS in this country is stretched beyond breaking point and in dire need of funding and staff. My parents will be lucky to receive any care in their dotage unless I pay for it. Workers rights are being eroded on a constant basis. Your rights to protest are being eroded. And where's Labour in this? Nowhere. We have a shadow health secretary who's funded by private healthcare firms and that's acceptable? No plans to even raise CGT. No empathy for asylum seekers. No plan to reform society or even examine the causes of issues affecting the vast majority. Just more red meat, crackdowns and some union jacks.

And yet I'm the problem here? f*** off.

My only answer is a new political party in conjunction with the unions. I'm not going to claim to be bright enough to have answers beyond this - what I do know is that the current system is f*cked for all but an exclusive few.

OK, can I jump in and try to engage on this?

There’s a crucial bit that you’re glossing over, and I think you’re too intelligent to not have spotted it yourself. It’s the bit where you say (paraphrasing) “if enough people withhold their vote, both parties might think twice/do more”.

You must know that that’s nonsense, and that the party that benefits from “people who want a better deal for societies most vulnerable” (which is the most likely cohort to withdraw their vote) is the Tories, and that they would welcome such a situation; the idea that it would give them pause is ludicrous.

For your point to be taken seriously, you have to be able to do more than that, because “Tories might have an epiphany if there’s low voter turnout” is every bit as fantastical as “Labour might lurch left once in power”

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:38 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:33 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:22 pm

Oh come on reducing the political differences to personality flaws just adds an element of infantalism to your already superficial defence of Labour.

Possibly Max. But so much of the issues within the Labour Party are because tossers - from Right and Left - are entrenched and incapable of listening to or caring about anything other than their own outlook. There needs to be compromise and a common aim for the whole Party. Unless their personal goals are more important of course. Even with all this sh*t within the Labour Party, they'll still get my vote, such is the cancer that is the Tory Party.

Again you reduce it to personalities. That is not what is going on. Its a political fight over material interests. The Left advocating improvements for workers and the Labour right protecting the interests of the capitalists and in their minds the "Nation"

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:42 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:38 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:33 pm

Possibly Max. But so much of the issues within the Labour Party are because tossers - from Right and Left - are entrenched and incapable of listening to or caring about anything other than their own outlook. There needs to be compromise and a common aim for the whole Party. Unless their personal goals are more important of course. Even with all this sh*t within the Labour Party, they'll still get my vote, such is the cancer that is the Tory Party.

Again you reduce it to personalities. That is not what is going on. Its a political fight over material interests. The Left advocating improvements for workers and the Labour right protecting the interests of the capitalists and in their minds the "Nation"

My view is that it's the clash of personalities, as well as dogma, that divides the Labour Party. My wish is that common ground could be reached which would enable the Labour Party to fight for what it was formed to fight for. Workers rights and a more caring Society.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:43 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:42 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:38 pm

Again you reduce it to personalities. That is not what is going on. Its a political fight over material interests. The Left advocating improvements for workers and the Labour right protecting the interests of the capitalists and in their minds the "Nation"

My view is that it's the clash of personalities, as well as dogma, that divides the Labour Party. My wish is that common ground could be reached which would enable the Labour Party to fight for what it was formed to fight for. Workers rights and a more caring Society.

Then you are in dire need of a political education.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:45 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:43 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:42 pm

My view is that it's the clash of personalities, as well as dogma, that divides the Labour Party. My wish is that common ground could be reached which would enable the Labour Party to fight for what it was formed to fight for. Workers rights and a more caring Society.

Then you are in dire need of a political education.

Haha - I'll pass thanks.