Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:42 am**

What alternatives are Labour currently offering? Genuine question.

Deporting failed asylum seekers more quickly and efficiently? Not raising the retirement age 'yet'? They've rowed back on their commitment to bring utilities into public ownership. They're out-Torying the Tories on their current rehashing of a failed approach to anti-social behaviour. Their drugs policy is indistinguishable from the Government's, if not worse. The Shadow Health Secretary doesn't support striking nurses and doctors. The Shadow Education Secretary doesn't support striking teachers.

Saying "they're not the Tory party" is a cop out. What are you voting FOR?

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:59 am**

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:38 am
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:28 am
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:02 pm It's quite the achievement for an opposition party to look quite so unappealing as an alternative to one of the worst, most increasingly right wing governments for generations. A one term cabinet (they're only having their quick turn, remember?) containing the likes of Reeves, Streeting and Lammy isn't worth anyone's vote.
Not at all. Whilst the current Labour leadership team is far from perfect what is the alternative? Another term for the Tories.

I’d vote for just about any party, and any imperfect individual to remove the Tories. I really can’t be arsed with arguing about how far to the right Labour, in parts, has become. They are not the current Tory party, that’s the bottom line.
True they are not the current Tory Party probably more like the Davie Cameron version.

Haha - they're not quite that bad.....

Even so, we're in a 2 horse race so who do you put your money on?

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:03 pm**

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:42 am What alternatives are Labour currently offering? Genuine question.

Deporting failed asylum seekers more quickly and efficiently? Not raising the retirement age 'yet'? They've rowed back on their commitment to bring utilities into public ownership. They're out-Torying the Tories on their current rehashing of a failed approach to anti-social behaviour. Their drugs policy is indistinguishable from the Government's, if not worse. The Shadow Health Secretary doesn't support striking nurses and doctors. The Shadow Education Secretary doesn't support striking teachers.

Saying "they're not the Tory party" is a cop out. What are you voting FOR?

Starmer made a definite policy to woo Tory voters, in order to win power.
He's lost a lot of left wing voters, but the gamble for him is will he claim more Tory voters than lost socialist ones.
The Labour party is as right wing as the Tories, and offers no real choice to voters.
Starmer lies about almost everything and isn't a likeable fellow, and I think the Tories might yet get in again.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:06 pm**

But he does know, with absolute certainty, that the left wing voters the party are haemorrhaging will not be voting for the tories.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:07 pm**

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:28 am
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:02 pm It's quite the achievement for an opposition party to look quite so unappealing as an alternative to one of the worst, most increasingly right wing governments for generations. A one term cabinet (they're only having their quick turn, remember?) containing the likes of Reeves, Streeting and Lammy isn't worth anyone's vote.
Not at all. Whilst the current Labour leadership team is far from perfect what is the alternative? Another term for the Tories.

I’d vote for just about any party, and any imperfect individual to remove the Tories. I really can’t be arsed with arguing about how far to the right Labour, in parts, has become. They are not the current Tory party, that’s the bottom line.

And there in a nutshell is Starmer's strategy in living form. Happy to accept the choice between a sh*t sandwich and a sh*t sandwich on slightly fresher bread.

No way Noo Noo Labour's getting my vote. SKS and young Wesley and all the other supposed grown ups have spent the last 2 years telling us on the left to f*ck off. Which is exactly what I'll do. I just wish the Socialist Campaign Group had a bit more backbone but they're proving themselves to be a fairly supine bunch as well.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:09 pm**

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:42 am What alternatives are Labour currently offering? Genuine question.

Deporting failed asylum seekers more quickly and efficiently? Not raising the retirement age 'yet'? They've rowed back on their commitment to bring utilities into public ownership. They're out-Torying the Tories on their current rehashing of a failed approach to anti-social behaviour. Their drugs policy is indistinguishable from the Government's, if not worse. The Shadow Health Secretary doesn't support striking nurses and doctors. The Shadow Education Secretary doesn't support striking teachers.

Saying "they're not the Tory party" is a cop out. What are you voting FOR?

It's no cop out to say that getting the Tories out is my main aim. Is it not yours? Please expand on why you think that Labour would not be preferable to the Tories.

At the moment the Labour Party is all over the place, I agree on that point. Enough has been said about their failure to capitalise on the Tories failings and overt corruption. Yes, Labour has some obnoxious individuals to the fore, but politics is so riddled with egotistic arse-holes that it's almost an exercise in counting how many there are compared to the Tories. Also, any assumption on what may or may not be done by any future Labour government is conjecture. We know what the Tories have done to this Country.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:11 pm**

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:07 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:28 am
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:02 pm It's quite the achievement for an opposition party to look quite so unappealing as an alternative to one of the worst, most increasingly right wing governments for generations. A one term cabinet (they're only having their quick turn, remember?) containing the likes of Reeves, Streeting and Lammy isn't worth anyone's vote.
Not at all. Whilst the current Labour leadership team is far from perfect what is the alternative? Another term for the Tories.

I’d vote for just about any party, and any imperfect individual to remove the Tories. I really can’t be arsed with arguing about how far to the right Labour, in parts, has become. They are not the current Tory party, that’s the bottom line.
And there in a nutshell is Starmer's strategy in living form. Happy to accept the choice between a sh*t sandwich and a sh*t sandwich on slightly fresher bread.

No way Noo Noo Labour's getting my vote. SKS and young Wesley and all the other supposed grown ups have spent the last 2 years telling us on the left to f*ck off. Which is exactly what I'll do. I just wish the Socialist Campaign Group had a bit more backbone but they're proving themselves to be a fairly supine bunch as well.

And you think I don't recognise the choice?

So what's the alternative? Seriously. What other path is there, other than voting Labour, to get rid of the Tories.
'

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:12 pm**

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:42 am What alternatives are Labour currently offering? Genuine question.

Deporting failed asylum seekers more quickly and efficiently? Not raising the retirement age 'yet'? They've rowed back on their commitment to bring utilities into public ownership. They're out-Torying the Tories on their current rehashing of a failed approach to anti-social behaviour. Their drugs policy is indistinguishable from the Government's, if not worse. The Shadow Health Secretary doesn't support striking nurses and doctors. The Shadow Education Secretary doesn't support striking teachers.

Saying "they're not the Tory party" is a cop out. What are you voting FOR?

Disagree that it’s a cop out. And I’m a bit bored by the way that saying “it’s plausible that Labour are playing it very safe before they get elected, and once the election is won we may see a more progressive party in government” gets twisted into “LOL morons think that once Keith gets in he’s gonna turn into Michael Foot”

I agree that there’s nothing exciting or inspiring right now that makes the prospect of a Labour government feel like an active great thing (though it’s ridiculous to not recognise that a Labour government, even if it’s being accurately trailed now by Starmer, would be better for society’s most vulnerable than another term of the Tories)

After 2019, the idea of Labour winning the next election seemed inconceivable. That it’s now almost inevitable speaks more to the collapse of the Tory party into an absolute clusterf*** than to Labour being inspiring, but after 2015, 2017 and 2019 (and with it by no means certain that the Tories won’t somehow get their arses into gear before 2024) I can see why the current strategy might be a good idea regardless of what the intent is upon getting elected.

I would like politics to be more inspiring and more about voting *for* good things rather than mitigating bad things, but we have to deal with where we are right now.
Personally I’d want to see electoral reform because for those of us in walthamstow it’s all academic anyway. That’s part of the problem, isn’t it? You and I could agree on this 100% and decide to not vote for our local MP in the general election, but our votes are completely irrelevant. I’ll be voting for Stella Creasy with no enthusiasm whatsoever and probably will have to promise myself a burger and a pint afterwards to get me out of the house, but I’ll vote for her all the same. Just as I did in 2017 with great enthusiasm for Labour as a whole, and just as I did in 2019 despite being massively f***ed off with how obvious it was that Labour were headed for disaster, much as I really liked the manifesto

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:13 pm**

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:07 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:28 am
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:02 pm It's quite the achievement for an opposition party to look quite so unappealing as an alternative to one of the worst, most increasingly right wing governments for generations. A one term cabinet (they're only having their quick turn, remember?) containing the likes of Reeves, Streeting and Lammy isn't worth anyone's vote.
Not at all. Whilst the current Labour leadership team is far from perfect what is the alternative? Another term for the Tories.

I’d vote for just about any party, and any imperfect individual to remove the Tories. I really can’t be arsed with arguing about how far to the right Labour, in parts, has become. They are not the current Tory party, that’s the bottom line.
And there in a nutshell is Starmer's strategy in living form. Happy to accept the choice between a sh*t sandwich and a sh*t sandwich on slightly fresher bread.

No way Noo Noo Labour's getting my vote. SKS and young Wesley and all the other supposed grown ups have spent the last 2 years telling us on the left to f*ck off. Which is exactly what I'll do. I just wish the Socialist Campaign Group had a bit more backbone but they're proving themselves to be a fairly supine bunch as well.

If I was forced to eat a sh*t sandwich, I’d rather have it with nicer bread

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:16 pm**

Rather than asking me to expand on anything, how about you try answering the question? What are you voting FOR other than "not the Tories"? Just start simple, name one concrete policy (which Starmer will probably renege on anyway).

The Tories are c*nts, yeah I'd like them out. But at this present time I genuinely don't believe that a Starmer government will improve my or anyone else's life. That's not the kind of middle class comfort that saw people refusing to vote for Corbyn for spurious reasons while remaining confident that a few more years of the Tories won't affect THEM too much, but a genuine belief that he won't do anything differently and in some policy areas could even be worse.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:18 pm**

CEB wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:12 pm
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:42 am What alternatives are Labour currently offering? Genuine question.

Deporting failed asylum seekers more quickly and efficiently? Not raising the retirement age 'yet'? They've rowed back on their commitment to bring utilities into public ownership. They're out-Torying the Tories on their current rehashing of a failed approach to anti-social behaviour. Their drugs policy is indistinguishable from the Government's, if not worse. The Shadow Health Secretary doesn't support striking nurses and doctors. The Shadow Education Secretary doesn't support striking teachers.

Saying "they're not the Tory party" is a cop out. What are you voting FOR?
Disagree that it’s a cop out. And I’m a bit bored by the way that saying “it’s plausible that Labour are playing it very safe before they get elected, and once the election is won we may see a more progressive party in government” gets twisted into “LOL morons think that once Keith gets in he’s gonna turn into Michael Foot”

I agree that there’s nothing exciting or inspiring right now that makes the prospect of a Labour government feel like an active great thing (though it’s ridiculous to not recognise that a Labour government, even if it’s being accurately trailed now by Starmer, would be better for society’s most vulnerable than another term of the Tories)

After 2019, the idea of Labour winning the next election seemed inconceivable. That it’s now almost inevitable speaks more to the collapse of the Tory party into an absolute clusterf*** than to Labour being inspiring, but after 2015, 2017 and 2019 (and with it by no means certain that the Tories won’t somehow get their arses into gear before 2024) I can see why the current strategy might be a good idea regardless of what the intent is upon getting elected.

I would like politics to be more inspiring and more about voting *for* good things rather than mitigating bad things, but we have to deal with where we are right now.
Personally I’d want to see electoral reform because for those of us in walthamstow it’s all academic anyway. That’s part of the problem, isn’t it? You and I could agree on this 100% and decide to not vote for our local MP in the general election, but our votes are completely irrelevant. I’ll be voting for Stella Creasy with no enthusiasm whatsoever and probably will have to promise myself a burger and a pint afterwards to get me out of the house, but I’ll vote for her all the same. Just as I did in 2017 with great enthusiasm for Labour as a whole, and just as I did in 2019 despite being massively f***ed off with how obvious it was that Labour were headed for disaster, much as I really liked the manifesto

Creasy ain't getting my vote. But as you say, that won't make any difference.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:23 pm**

I’m up for being convinced that withholding a vote from an uninspiring, safe Labour MP is a better use of the vote, but I’m not quite there yet. I have to admit that the thing most likely to make me not vote for her is the cringey social media persona more than any policy

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:30 pm**

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:16 pm Rather than asking me to expand on anything, how about you try answering the question? What are you voting FOR other than "not the Tories"? Just start simple, name one concrete policy (which Starmer will probably renege on anyway).

The Tories are c*nts, yeah I'd like them out. But at this present time I genuinely don't believe that a Starmer government will improve my or anyone else's life. That's not the kind of middle class comfort that saw people refusing to vote for Corbyn for spurious reasons while remaining confident that a few more years of the Tories won't affect THEM too much, but a genuine belief that he won't do anything differently and in some policy areas could even be worse.

On this, I’m not voting for anything other than “not the Tories” because I do think that removing them from office is essential for there to be any chance whatsoever of anything more progressive - whether that appears in a manifesto, or whether it’s about trying to force the Labour Party to listen in the future.

It’s easy to say that it’s not middle class comfort - and I get that you are deeply committed to your principles on this - but due to the electoral system those of us who live in a safe seat *do* get to think of our vote in terms of what it symbolises and how it aligns with what we like to think of as our principles, in a way that isn’t the case when every vote could matter. And that’s what it comes down to for me; treating your vote as if it’s the vote that matters. And for me, despite finding Labour distinctly underwhelming, if my vote could plausibly be the difference between a Labour and Tory MP, then it has to go to Labour, whether I have to hold my nose or not.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:30 pm**

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:16 pm Rather than asking me to expand on anything, how about you try answering the question? What are you voting FOR other than "not the Tories"? Just start simple, name one concrete policy (which Starmer will probably renege on anyway).

The Tories are c*nts, yeah I'd like them out. But at this present time I genuinely don't believe that a Starmer government will improve my or anyone else's life. That's not the kind of middle class comfort that saw people refusing to vote for Corbyn for spurious reasons while remaining confident that a few more years of the Tories won't affect THEM too much, but a genuine belief that he won't do anything differently and in some policy areas could even be worse.

You haven't answered my question either, what is the alternative to voting Labour if you want the Tories out?

Re policies, you've just thrown out some top-level blurb saying they're as bad or worse than the Tories. Expand on why they're as such or drop it. You made those claims.

The Labour party is 2 squabbling factions who believe (act as if?) that their views on socialism are the more important, pure, whatever. If they parted ways then the Tories would remain in power for the rest of my lifetime, probably. Egotism and petty party in-fighting in the Labour Party is almost as destructive to this Country's wellbeing as the Tory party. So why don't the left of the Labour Party and the Right of the party work to find some middle ground that they can align behind in order to rid this Country of the pestilence that is the Tories. It's pathetic how the 2 sides of Labour would rather face off than work for the betterment of Society.

Having said all this, I'd still vote Labour as the only possible way to remove the Tories from power at the next election. Unless, of course, you have a better option?

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:31 pm**

Havent looked into all the details, but I'd expect better levels of competence, funding for public services,fairness, and less corruption. That'll do for starters.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:33 pm**

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:31 pm Havent looked into all the details, but I'd expect better levels of competence, funding for public services,fairness, and less corruption. That'll do for starters.

You have to simply ask, could they be any worse?

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:39 pm**

Are we having this debate again?

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:42 pm**

I'm pretty sure we're going to come to an agreement this time.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:45 pm**

Maybe not this time, but it can only be three or four more goes round until there’s consensus

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:46 pm**

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:39 pm Are we having this debate again?

Don't you have an alternative to voting Labour either?

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:46 pm**

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:11 pm
Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:07 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:28 am

Not at all. Whilst the current Labour leadership team is far from perfect what is the alternative? Another term for the Tories.

I’d vote for just about any party, and any imperfect individual to remove the Tories. I really can’t be arsed with arguing about how far to the right Labour, in parts, has become. They are not the current Tory party, that’s the bottom line.
And there in a nutshell is Starmer's strategy in living form. Happy to accept the choice between a sh*t sandwich and a sh*t sandwich on slightly fresher bread.

No way Noo Noo Labour's getting my vote. SKS and young Wesley and all the other supposed grown ups have spent the last 2 years telling us on the left to f*ck off. Which is exactly what I'll do. I just wish the Socialist Campaign Group had a bit more backbone but they're proving themselves to be a fairly supine bunch as well.
And you think I don't recognise the choice?

So what's the alternative? Seriously. What other path is there, other than voting Labour, to get rid of the Tories.
'

The alternative? Not voting for either might be a start. Maybe if SKS and the other faceless tossers in the shadow cabinet start understanding they can't rely on just not being the Tories, they might start offering some decent alternative policies.

I don't think Labour's victory is a given yet - we're 18 months away from the election and already the poll lead is starting to slowly disappear. Perhaps that's because there's great swathes of the country needing an alternative government with policies that might affect their lives and are now realizing there's nothing on offer for them. Why trust Labour when the supposed government in waiting has ditched almost every policy it's leader supposedly stood for.

Starmer's biggest danger is voter apathy. And he's creating it.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:48 pm**

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:46 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:11 pm
Admin wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:07 pm

And there in a nutshell is Starmer's strategy in living form. Happy to accept the choice between a sh*t sandwich and a sh*t sandwich on slightly fresher bread.

No way Noo Noo Labour's getting my vote. SKS and young Wesley and all the other supposed grown ups have spent the last 2 years telling us on the left to f*ck off. Which is exactly what I'll do. I just wish the Socialist Campaign Group had a bit more backbone but they're proving themselves to be a fairly supine bunch as well.
And you think I don't recognise the choice?

So what's the alternative? Seriously. What other path is there, other than voting Labour, to get rid of the Tories.
'
The alternative? Not voting for either might be a start. Maybe if SKS and the other faceless tossers in the shadow cabinet start understanding they can't rely on just not being the Tories, they might start offering some decent alternative policies.

I don't think Labour's victory is a given yet - we're 18 months away from the election and already the poll lead is starting to slowly disappear. Perhaps that's because there's great swathes of the country needing an alternative government with policies that might affect their lives and are now realizing there's nothing on offer for them. Why trust Labour when the supposed government in waiting has ditched almost every policy it's leader supposedly stood for.

Starmer's biggest danger is voter apathy. And he's creating it.

Not voting would just allow the Tories another 4 years. Great alternative.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:53 pm**

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:59 am
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:38 am
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:28 am

Not at all. Whilst the current Labour leadership team is far from perfect what is the alternative? Another term for the Tories.

I’d vote for just about any party, and any imperfect individual to remove the Tories. I really can’t be arsed with arguing about how far to the right Labour, in parts, has become. They are not the current Tory party, that’s the bottom line.
True they are not the current Tory Party probably more like the Davie Cameron version.
Haha - they're not quite that bad.....

Even so, we're in a 2 horse race so who do you put your money on?

The workers or heaven forbid a socialist.

You are being dragged into the Election delusion. There's little difference between the two main custodians of neo liberal economic austerity for working people

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:57 pm**

I think there's something to be said for those in safe Labour seats to use their vote differently (including not voting). But if you live in a seat which Labour could lose or is within a shout of winning, then the calculus changes.

As for the workers, they need to get a grip, join a union, and start adding to the victories already being achieved.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:58 pm**

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:53 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:59 am
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:38 am

True they are not the current Tory Party probably more like the Davie Cameron version.
Haha - they're not quite that bad.....

Even so, we're in a 2 horse race so who do you put your money on?
The workers or heaven forbid a socialist.

You are being dragged into the Election delusion. There's little difference between the two main custodians of neo liberal economic austerity for working people

No delusion Max. If there were another party that offered an opportunity to rid us of the Tories then I'd take a good look at it. But there isn't.

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