CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:44 pm
Right - you know your analogy about a turd sandwich?
Well, you know the bit where you acknowledge there’ll be less metaphorical turd to eat under a Labour government than under a Tory one?
there’s no escaping that that’s an admittance that things *will* be less crap under Labour.
Nobody is saying that it’s inspirational - that’s an argument several people seem to be having in their own heads.
Yes, I’d love a much, much more transformative, progressive labour government. Can you outline how we get there?
With a 20 point lead in the polls and a dying tory party on it's electoral arse, you don't think Labour can't afford to be a little more progressive and ambitious in its vision, particularly at this time with the country being an utter skip-fire and an electorate in even direr need of reform than in 2017?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting full on socialism here, but merely standing there and saying you're not as sh*t as the current incumbents does little for anyone. At this rate, they'll get 1 term, fiddle around the edges and be bundled out again by a detoxified tory party. I'm no Blairite, but even he used 95-97 to offer a reformed agenda and alternative to the masses.
I think they probably could afford to be more progressive, yes. Though I think that for the purposes of getting into power, I can see why they’re not risking anything. I’d prefer for them to get more progressive when in power, and for there to be pressure on them to do so. You say you’re not expecting full on socialism, but you’re quite happy to paint those saying “things will be a bit better under Labour” as if they’re saying “Keir Starmer will turn into Tony Benn”
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:44 pm
Right - you know your analogy about a turd sandwich?
Well, you know the bit where you acknowledge there’ll be less metaphorical turd to eat under a Labour government than under a Tory one?
there’s no escaping that that’s an admittance that things *will* be less crap under Labour.
Nobody is saying that it’s inspirational - that’s an argument several people seem to be having in their own heads.
Yes, I’d love a much, much more transformative, progressive labour government. Can you outline how we get there?
With a 20 point lead in the polls and a dying tory party on it's electoral arse, you don't think Labour can't afford to be a little more progressive and ambitious in its vision, particularly at this time with the country being an utter skip-fire and an electorate in even direr need of reform than in 2017?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting full on socialism here, but merely standing there and saying you're not as sh*t as the current incumbents does little for anyone. At this rate, they'll get 1 term, fiddle around the edges and be bundled out again by a detoxified tory party. I'm no Blairite, but even he used 95-97 to offer a progressive reforming agenda and alternative to the masses.
What it does do is entrench the capitalist class because a centre right Labour Party is not going to challenge the fundamentals of the system.
They are a movement within Labour who now and again get a go at running capitalism when the normal incumbents exhaust themselves. For now they are the dominant faction and Keith Stalin is resorting to the dictatorial method to expunge critics on the Left (who btw will all tow the line the day a GE is called).
He should, as JC did, give them their place in a broad coalition against the Tory scum. Starting a party civil war is mental and in doing so he is shortening his reign by sowing the seeds of his own destruction.
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:44 pm
Right - you know your analogy about a turd sandwich?
Well, you know the bit where you acknowledge there’ll be less metaphorical turd to eat under a Labour government than under a Tory one?
there’s no escaping that that’s an admittance that things *will* be less crap under Labour.
Nobody is saying that it’s inspirational - that’s an argument several people seem to be having in their own heads.
Yes, I’d love a much, much more transformative, progressive labour government. Can you outline how we get there?
With a 20 point lead in the polls and a dying tory party on it's electoral arse, you don't think Labour can't afford to be a little more progressive and ambitious in its vision, particularly at this time with the country being an utter skip-fire and an electorate in even direr need of reform than in 2017?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting full on socialism here, but merely standing there and saying you're not as sh*t as the current incumbents does little for anyone. At this rate, they'll get 1 term, fiddle around the edges and be bundled out again by a detoxified tory party. I'm no Blairite, but even he used 95-97 to offer a reformed agenda and alternative to the masses.
I think they probably could afford to be more progressive, yes. Though I think that for the purposes of getting into power, I can see why they’re not risking anything. I’d prefer for them to get more progressive when in power, and for there to be pressure on them to do so. You say you’re not expecting full on socialism, but you’re quite happy to paint those saying “things will be a bit better under Labour” as if they’re saying “Keir Starmer will turn into Tony Benn”
They won't get more progressive when in power if the dissenters are expelled and the money of the millionares is preferred over membership subs and TU dosh. You are putting your faith in an already lost cause.
Don't forget there will be payback expected for the millionaires donations and the corporates will be applying pressure to deliver "shareholders value" to their cohorts of the Idle rich.
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:44 pm
Right - you know your analogy about a turd sandwich?
Well, you know the bit where you acknowledge there’ll be less metaphorical turd to eat under a Labour government than under a Tory one?
there’s no escaping that that’s an admittance that things *will* be less crap under Labour.
Nobody is saying that it’s inspirational - that’s an argument several people seem to be having in their own heads.
Yes, I’d love a much, much more transformative, progressive labour government. Can you outline how we get there?
With a 20 point lead in the polls and a dying tory party on it's electoral arse, you don't think Labour can't afford to be a little more progressive and ambitious in its vision, particularly at this time with the country being an utter skip-fire and an electorate in even direr need of reform than in 2017?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting full on socialism here, but merely standing there and saying you're not as sh*t as the current incumbents does little for anyone. At this rate, they'll get 1 term, fiddle around the edges and be bundled out again by a detoxified tory party. I'm no Blairite, but even he used 95-97 to offer a reformed agenda and alternative to the masses.
I think they probably could afford to be more progressive, yes. Though I think that for the purposes of getting into power, I can see why they’re not risking anything. I’d prefer for them to get more progressive when in power, and for there to be pressure on them to do so. You say you’re not expecting full on socialism, but you’re quite happy to paint those saying “things will be a bit better under Labour” as if they’re saying “Keir Starmer will turn into Tony Benn”
My reference to Tony Benn is more to do with people elsewhere who seem to think that Starmer's suddenly going to return to a Corbynite agenda when he gets the keys to No 10 and this approach is really a cunning game of 5D chess.
Starmer stood for leader on a platform of continuity Corbynism and has abandoned every pledge made since and his purge of anyone vaguely interested in left of centre politics isn't exactly encouraging to anyone except Blairites and centerists like Matt Forde. As I say, it all points to 5 years of crackdown initiatives, shagging flags and achieving next to nothing except perhaps a return to the single market which is almost inevitable regardless of which flavour government we have.
20 Points ahead and barring a major disaster, a fairly sizeable majority at the end of 2024. I'll bet you a crisp £5 note that by 2029, there'll be no substantial change to anyone's existence. What do we do then? Wait another 15 years for another possible progressive government to pass through?
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:44 pm
Right - you know your analogy about a turd sandwich?
Well, you know the bit where you acknowledge there’ll be less metaphorical turd to eat under a Labour government than under a Tory one?
there’s no escaping that that’s an admittance that things *will* be less crap under Labour.
Nobody is saying that it’s inspirational - that’s an argument several people seem to be having in their own heads.
Yes, I’d love a much, much more transformative, progressive labour government. Can you outline how we get there?
With a 20 point lead in the polls and a dying tory party on it's electoral arse, you don't think Labour can't afford to be a little more progressive and ambitious in its vision, particularly at this time with the country being an utter skip-fire and an electorate in even direr need of reform than in 2017?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting full on socialism here, but merely standing there and saying you're not as sh*t as the current incumbents does little for anyone. At this rate, they'll get 1 term, fiddle around the edges and be bundled out again by a detoxified tory party. I'm no Blairite, but even he used 95-97 to offer a progressive reforming agenda and alternative to the masses.
What it does do is entrench the capitalist class because a centre right Labour Party is not going to challenge the fundamentals of the system.
They are a movement within Labour who now and again get a go at running capitalism when the normal incumbents exhaust themselves. For now they are the dominant faction and Keith Stalin is resorting to the dictatorial method to expunge critics on the Left (who btw will all tow the line the day a GE is called).
He should as JC did, give them their place in a broad coalition against the Tory scum. Starting a party civil war is mental and in doing so he is shortening his reign by sowing the seeds if his own destruction.
Not sure if a civil war is possible if Starmer's expelled everyone on the left? The SCG rump of MP's are hardly providing any opposition either - he's aiming for a repeat of the Blair / Brown years where a few lefties get to sit on the sidelines and allow him to still refer to Labour being a "broad church".
A new socialist party might be an idea though.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:20 pm
by CEB
I think “continuity corbynism” is rather pushing it
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:22 pm
by Admin
I've just noticed this MB automatically inserts "Sir Tony" in front of the word Blair.
Really need to reel Caca in.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:26 pm
by Admin
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:20 pm
I think “continuity corbynism” is rather pushing it
Maybe a little bit. Regardless, most of these are dead in the water now.
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:44 pm
Right - you know your analogy about a turd sandwich?
Well, you know the bit where you acknowledge there’ll be less metaphorical turd to eat under a Labour government than under a Tory one?
there’s no escaping that that’s an admittance that things *will* be less crap under Labour.
Wait til you find out some people are having jam sandwiches and they're even cut into triangles, not rectangles.
He will blow a gasket when he finds out they cut the crusts OFF too and don't even, for a single minute, think about giving them to the poor. They feed their dogs and horses with them.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:21 pm
by CEB
Again, very droll. Great extension of analogy. Round of applause.
At the risk of being boring, can I just restate that I’m 100% on board with having a government who redistributes the jam and the nice bread. That’s what I want to happen.
But Maxxx’yyyy here has already said that he’s cool with the rich people keeping their jam until his revolution picks up a bit of steam, and I’ll always vote for the party wot pledges to share the jam. Can you tell me how we get that party under the current electoral system, and with the current set up of mainstream media?
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:23 pm
by Max Fowler
Listen to this dude and tell me you're genuinely ok with a little tinkering around the edges for 5 years, 10 if we're lucky, before the tory cu*ts come back in to undo, and then some, whatever little good has been done.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:26 pm
by CEB
I do like your consistency. You’re definitely the poster I think this of:
“this guy will definitely watch a 90 minute long YouTube video I link to if I tell him politely that he argues my case well”
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:27 pm
by Max Fowler
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:21 pm and I’ll always vote for the party wot pledges to share the jam. Can you tell me how we get that party under the current electoral system, and with the current set up of mainstream media?
Sirkier isn't vowing to share out the jam, he's vowing to give you a little bit less sh*t spread in your sh*t sandwich.
Also, why are you bringing the MSM into this?
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:28 pm
by Max Fowler
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:26 pm
I do like your consistency. You’re definitely the poster I think this of:
“this guy will definitely watch a 90 minute long YouTube video I link to if I tell him politely that he argues my case well”
Watch 3 minutes and you'll be hooked, it's compelling viewing/listening.
He's also one of the last ever Gary's born, which only adds to his pull.
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:21 pm and I’ll always vote for the party wot pledges to share the jam. Can you tell me how we get that party under the current electoral system, and with the current set up of mainstream media?
Sirkier isn't vowing to share out the jam, he's vowing to give you a little bit less sh*t spread in your sh*t sandwich.
Also, why are you bringing the MSM into this?
I didn’t say he is sharing out the jam. I’m saying that if Labour is saying they’ll share out the jam: great! I want to vote for that! - but ah, not so great, unfortunately we’ve lost the election, so it’s back to the maximum amount of poo in a sandwich
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:26 pm
I do like your consistency. You’re definitely the poster I think this of:
“this guy will definitely watch a 90 minute long YouTube video I link to if I tell him politely that he argues my case well”
Watch 3 minutes and you'll be hooked, it's compelling viewing/listening.
He's also one of the last ever Gary's born, which only adds to his pull.
“Watch this video by someone with an insight into having an outdated name, Keith”
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:57 pm
by Max B Gold
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:21 pm
Again, very droll. Great extension of analogy. Round of applause.
At the risk of being boring, can I just restate that I’m 100% on board with having a government who redistributes the jam and the nice bread. That’s what I want to happen.
But Maxxx’yyyy here has already said that he’s cool with the rich people keeping their jam until his revolution picks up a bit of steam, and I’ll always vote for the party wot pledges to share the jam. Can you tell me how we get that party under the current electoral system, and with the current set up of mainstream media?
I didn't say I was cool with it. Yet another CEB Falsification.
I will fight and organise against every Tory govt with the little energy I have left until the day I die.
Ps. Clue - forget about elections being the key to changing anything worthwhile. It's where you are going wrong on this one.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 3:14 pm
by Give it to Jabo
Admin wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:22 pm
I've just noticed this MB automatically inserts "Sir Tony" in front of the word Blair.
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:19 am
I get the tactics, thank you for explaining. I just refuse to accept this is the only way of gaining power.
I'm not suggesting it is. But it's the most likely route to power under the current system.
Personally, I'm of the view that the best chance of reducing wealth inequality is with a Labour government, but undermined through grass-roots action and trade unionism.
Do you mean underpinned not undermined?
I meant what I said.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:50 pm
by Max Fowler
Test: Blair
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 5:18 pm
by Dunners
Admin wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:14 pm
My reference to Tony Benn is more to do with people elsewhere who seem to think that Starmer's suddenly going to return to a Corbynite agenda when he gets the keys to No 10.....
Starmer stood for leader on a platform of continuity Corbynism and has abandoned every pledge made since...
I'll bet you a crisp £5 note that by 2029, there'll be no substantial change to anyone's existence....
I don't know anyone who is seriously claiming Starmer will return to the Corbyn agenda. We're not that naive.
Starmer said what did to win the Labour leadership election. Now he's saying what he is to win the next general election. We're not under any illusions.
If Labour win, there will be increased investment in public services. It won't be enough, but it will be something. And it will be materially better than alternative outcome of another five years to Tory government.
The real fight will continue on the picket lines and through community action, often in defiance of the government.
Admin wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:14 pm
My reference to Tony Benn is more to do with people elsewhere who seem to think that Starmer's suddenly going to return to a Corbynite agenda when he gets the keys to No 10.....
Starmer stood for leader on a platform of continuity Corbynism and has abandoned every pledge made since...
I'll bet you a crisp £5 note that by 2029, there'll be no substantial change to anyone's existence....
I don't know anyone who is seriously claiming Starmer will return to the Corbyn agenda. We're not that naive.
Starmer said what did to win the Labour leadership election. Now he's saying what he is to win the next general election. We're not under any illusions.
If Labour win, there will be increased investment in public services. It won't be enough, but it will be something. And it will be materially better than alternative outcome of another five years to Tory government.
The real fight will continue on the picket lines and through community action, often in defiance of the government.
Maybe it's just the twats I've had the misfortune to encounter who've recently claimed this although there's a few on twatter who're also going down this line.
I'm not disputing it'll be better (although I still suspect we're talking about small degrees of difference in real terms) and agree entirely that the main drive of any change will come from the unions etc.
Regardless, it's still likely to end up being another missed opportunity - by continually punching leftwards, Starmer risks alienating a lot of potential voters who'll just f*ck it off when it comes to sticking a cross in a box.
