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Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 9:57 am
by Dunners
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 9:42 am
Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 8:52 am
Labour are obviously not going to make any policy announcements yet. Nor are they ever going to bring about radical change.
Labour 2023/2024 are not going to make any radical change.
But Labour 2015-2019 would have.
I agree.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:04 am
by Proposition Joe
Every time Starmer opens his mouth it makes me that bit more comfortable with not voting Labour next time round. Previously would've caused a bit of angst but it's a pretty easy decision now.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:08 am
by Max Fowler
I wouldn't mind seeing Jezza have a pop at the London Mayor's job, imagine the frothing that would cause.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:09 am
by ComeOnYouOs
Starmer is a duplicitous c***, for 3 years he stood next to Corbyn, should to shoulder etc, when all the time he was planning and plotting to get rid of him. what a b*stard the man is.
He then made 10 pledges to get elected to the Leader role, knowing full well, he would drop them if he made it. A real slimeball.
He isnt liked among the electorate, but because the Tories have imploded, he'll become PM late next year.
vile man
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:10 am
by Dunners
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 9:44 am
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 9:13 am
What this is really about is people of your leanings still feeling sore about Corbz and your politics being totally rejected by the electorate.
13.6m votes for the tories v 12.9m for Labour is a total rejection? Interesting.
Your right. It wasn't a total rejection. Labour had the numbers, just never the distribution. They had too many voters concentrated in core areas.
Corbyn never had a strategy for achieving success under the FPTP system. Starmer does. And it involves not doing or saying anything that may spook the voters which will make the difference. It also involves a few dog whistles for those voters. And you won't like those voters.
It's cynical. It's unfair. It's rigged, and it's totally uninspiring. But it's there, and any chance of power means navigating that system.
And after 13 years (with another 2 pssibly ahead of us) of this, I'm willing to settle for that.
I also feel that the way Corbyn is being treated is a disgrace. However, I understand the strategy. But I also understand why those who were attracted to Labour during the Corbyn years may be unable to reconcile themselves to Starmer's Labour. And maybe that's for the best for everyone.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:19 am
by Max Fowler
I get the tactics, thank you for explaining. I just refuse to accept this is the only way of gaining power.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:22 am
by CEB
Agree with Dunners.
Just to add though - yes it’s clearly undemocratic that Labour got more votes in total than the tories but didn’t get in.
But it’s worth bearing in mind that 1: that’s partly because the Tory strategy is based on playing the game as it is, not how people would like it to be
and 2: if the system in a general election were to base itself solely on the popular vote, that doesn’t just help progressive causes; it also opens up all sorts of populism and playing on fears. I wouldn’t be so confident that the tories wouldn’t do that very well
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:28 am
by Dunners
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:19 am
I get the tactics, thank you for explaining. I just refuse to accept this is the only way of gaining power.
I'm not suggesting it is. But it's the most likely route to power under the current system.
Personally, I'm of the view that the best chance of reducing wealth inequality is with a Labour government, but undermined through grass-roots action and trade unionism.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:33 am
by CEB
Yep. Be angry at a Labour government. That’ll help!
(I mean, I think it will, but couldn’t resist)
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:34 am
by Max B Gold
Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:28 am
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:19 am
I get the tactics, thank you for explaining. I just refuse to accept this is the only way of gaining power.
I'm not suggesting it is. But it's the most likely route to power under the current system.
Personally, I'm of the view that the best chance of reducing wealth inequality is with a Labour government, but undermined through grass-roots action and trade unionism.
Do you mean underpinned not undermined?
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:36 am
by Long slender neck
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:19 am
I get the tactics, thank you for explaining. I just refuse to accept this is the only way of gaining power.
Whats another way then?
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:39 am
by CEB
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:36 am
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:19 am
I get the tactics, thank you for explaining. I just refuse to accept this is the only way of gaining power.
Whats another way then?
Sigh. Ever heard of third time lucky?
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:40 am
by Max B Gold
Anecdote Alert
I was talking to a customer last night in the taxi who was of the opinion that Starmer had got it right and as a Labour supporter he was happy with his lying and deceit.
He's only been in the area for about six months so I checked on Right Move how much he had paid for his 6 bedroom mansion and 3 acres which was £660k. If rich guys like him are in love with Keith why is everyone else bleating? Go the National Racist Labour and God save the King.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:42 am
by CEB
I would have quoted that and replied, but to be fair, all I’d have said is “anecdote alert”
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:45 am
by Max Fowler
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:36 am
TRUMP Plumbing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:19 am
I get the tactics, thank you for explaining. I just refuse to accept this is the only way of gaining power.
Whats another way then?
You're right of course, there is no other way.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:46 am
by Max B Gold
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:42 am
I would have quoted that and replied, but to be fair, all I’d have said is “anecdote alert”
Yes thanks for not replying but even as an anecdote it makes a wider point about just who is becoming more relaxed as the Labour Tories drive the party further to the right and wrap themselves in the Butchers Apron.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:49 am
by Mistadobalina
Not enamoured with Starmer at all but some of the low key policy wonk stuff they are talking about - devolution, having a proper industrial strategy, actual plans for transitioning to net zero instead of just rhetoric - will make a significant number of lives better. Nowhere near as much as is needed, but miles ahead of the endless rolling shambles of Tory government that has f*cked the country for the last 13 years. They won't do mental stuff that immediately costs people thousands of pounds, and they'll do less of the vindictive stuff that ruins lives in a real way.
And if rejoining the EU is your thing, Labour will almost definitely bring us much closer to Europe, with a view to being in the EEA or something similar. That'd give us an immediate improvement in the amount of money the average person will have.
Getting rid of Corbyn doesn't sit right with me but it makes tactical sense and I can't see why it'd be a deal breaker when the alternative is Sunak or even possibly Johnson again.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:55 am
by Give it to Jabo
I would prefer a Centrist Labour Govt. than any Tory administration. I have sympathy for Corbyn, but I think that he enjoys the role of victim a tad. I know Blair should NEVER have gone to war with Bush, but in general, Britain was a fairly agreeable place to live back in those days. Does Starmer communicate as well as Blair? No. Also, the next Election is very far from won. The newspaper battalions will get behind the Tories and Lee Anderson et al will be doing their populist stuff.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:02 am
by CEB
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:46 am
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:42 am
I would have quoted that and replied, but to be fair, all I’d have said is “anecdote alert”
Yes thanks for not replying but even as an anecdote it makes a wider point about just who is becoming more relaxed as the Labour Tories drive the party further to the right and wrap themselves in the Butchers Apron.
You know when they count the votes in an election? What do you think has happened when the numbers for one party go up while the numbers for the other go down, in what is described as a “swing”?
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:03 am
by Max B Gold
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:49 am
Not enamoured with Starmer at all but some of the low key policy wonk stuff they are talking about - devolution, having a proper industrial strategy, actual plans for transitioning to net zero instead of just rhetoric - will make a significant number of lives better. Nowhere near as much as is needed, but miles ahead of the endless rolling shambles of Tory government that has f*cked the country for the last 13 years. They won't do mental stuff that immediately costs people thousands of pounds, and they'll do less of the vindictive stuff that ruins lives in a real way.
And if rejoining the EU is your thing, Labour will almost definitely bring us much closer to Europe, with a view to being in the EEA or something similar. That'd give us an immediate improvement in the amount of money the average person will have.
Getting rid of Corbyn doesn't sit right with me but it makes tactical sense and I can't see why it'd be a deal breaker when the alternative is Sunak or even possibly Johnson again.
Cracking policy here, probably stolen from a Tory policy wonks briefcase
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:06 am
by Max B Gold
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:02 am
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:46 am
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:42 am
I would have quoted that and replied, but to be fair, all I’d have said is “anecdote alert”
Yes thanks for not replying but even as an anecdote it makes a wider point about just who is becoming more relaxed as the Labour Tories drive the party further to the right and wrap themselves in the Butchers Apron.
You know when they count the votes in an election? What do you think has happened when the numbers for one party go up while the numbers for the other go down, in what is described as a “swing”?
Are you implying that the right thing to do is placate the rich to win their votes in a rigged election system? Come on you're better than that.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:07 am
by CEB
No, we should definitely keep on with a strategy that keeps power in the hands of the rich.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:08 am
by Max B Gold
Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:55 am
I would prefer a Centrist Labour Govt. than any Tory administration. I have sympathy for Corbyn, but I think that he enjoys the role of victim a tad. I know Sir Tony Blair should NEVER have gone to war with Bush, but in general, Britain was a fairly agreeable place to live back in those days. Does Starmer communicate as well as Sir Tony Blair? No. Also, the next Election is very far from won. The newspaper battalions will get behind the Tories and Lee Anderson et al will be doing their populist stuff.
I live in a country governed by centerists. Its still shoite.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:09 am
by Max B Gold
CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:07 am
No, we should definitely keep on with a strategy that keeps power in the hands of the rich.
Thought as much.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:12 am
by CEB
Seeing a lot of snark and not a lot of ideas