Independent Leyton Orient Forum

I'm genuinely surprised any of you bother to engage with the gobshite, but well done admin on putting him right on a few points he was unsure of.

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:09 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:06 pm Absolute mauling

And well deserved. Nonsense like Maffys deserves to be pulled apart.

Still think you should have finished off by calling him a FUD.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:38 pm

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:09 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:06 pm Absolute mauling

And well deserved. Nonsense like Maffys deserves to be pulled apart.

Still think you should have finished off by calling him a FUD.

In this debate, a FUD of the highest order, even in the Sean Connery class.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:38 pm

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:09 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:06 pm Absolute mauling

And well deserved. Nonsense like Maffys deserves to be pulled apart.

Still think you should have finished off by calling him a FUD.

Always think FUD can only be said with a Scottish accent. Which is why I’ll leave it to you to deliver the coup de grace

How many complaints would need to be lodged for YOU to consider it rife, Mr Admin?

Admin currently strutting around the virtual MB ring doing the Easy Easy thing.

Just seen a video of Chomsky saying what a load of bollocks all this is. Who am I to argue with an intellectual heavyweight like that?

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:04 pm So no evidence at all then? Just a couple of lines of pure bollocks about interpretation of your wording.

You’ve asserted that anti Semitism is rife in the Labour Party but offered nothing in the way of evidence. Anti semitic behaviour has clearly taken place but theirs no evidence that it’s “rife” and you’ve nothing to offer except tabloid style throwaway phrases. Triesmans resignation contains an opinion yet you’re presenting that as evidence.

Perhaps you should think twice before making assertions that insult the vast majority of volunteers, staff and members of a political party who deserve better than being tarred with your idiotic brush.

For someone who tries to portray himself as an out of the box thinker, your contributions here mainly portray you as someone who’s just out of their box.

The evidence is the doubling of staff by Formby now processing complaints much faster than 12 months ago, when people, including Tom Watson have been critical of past inaction. Doubling staff, processing faster. The clues are there. If anybody believes this is not a really serious issue but some conspiracy against Corbyn then it is they who are out of their box.

So your response. Lets dissect a word. great. just continue to bury your head in the sand and convince yourself its a storm in a tea cup. At no time have I insulted people as you suggest, that is your interpretation not mine, but it remains a significant issue, complaint's are commonplace (hence the team processing them faster than ever) and one that has been handled badly in the past by the parties own admission. Formby being appointed is no doubt trying to do enough to satisfy the inquiry that its all under control. Which I'm sure she will do. She is running fast to clear up the mess. The penny dropping.

Consider what can constitute evidence. When the inquiry into antisemitism in the party is/was investigated the investigators will listen to peoples words, what these people have observed or experienced, what they believe to be true. This can be used as evidence. What people say CAN be used in evidence. Some of what these people said on Panorama can be used as evidence if repeated to the inquiry. The party equally can refute that evidence by what they say, which is what they did. Triesmans observations can be used as evidence. Opinions cannot, but what people say certainly what they have experienced can.

Ignore that stuff I said about Noam, ive just read dohs latest brain fart and changed my mind. Boo to the Labour racists!

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:04 pm Ignore that stuff I said about Noam, ive just read dohs latest brain fart and changed my mind. Boo to the Labour racists!

jeez, were trying to have a sensible debate here. Grow up.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:02 pm

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:04 pm So no evidence at all then? Just a couple of lines of pure bollocks about interpretation of your wording.

You’ve asserted that anti Semitism is rife in the Labour Party but offered nothing in the way of evidence. Anti semitic behaviour has clearly taken place but theirs no evidence that it’s “rife” and you’ve nothing to offer except tabloid style throwaway phrases. Triesmans resignation contains an opinion yet you’re presenting that as evidence.

Perhaps you should think twice before making assertions that insult the vast majority of volunteers, staff and members of a political party who deserve better than being tarred with your idiotic brush.

For someone who tries to portray himself as an out of the box thinker, your contributions here mainly portray you as someone who’s just out of their box.

The evidence is the doubling of staff by Formby now processing complaints much faster than 12 months ago, when people, including Tom Watson have been critical of past inaction. Doubling staff, processing faster. The clues are there. If anybody believes this is not a really serious issue but some conspiracy against Corbyn then it is they who are out of their box.

So your response. Lets dissect a word. great. just continue to bury your head in the sand and convince yourself its a storm in a tea cup. At no time have I insulted people as you suggest, that is your interpretation not mine, but it remains a significant issue, complaint's are commonplace (hence the team processing them faster than ever) and one that has been handled badly in the past by the parties own admission. Formby being appointed is no doubt trying to do enough to satisfy the inquiry that its all under control. Which I'm sure she will do. She is running fast to clear up the mess. The penny dropping.

Consider what can constitute evidence. When the inquiry into antisemitism in the party is/was investigated the investigators will listen to peoples words, what these people have observed or experienced, what they believe to be true. This can be used as evidence. What people say CAN be used in evidence. Some of what these people said on Panorama can be used as evidence if repeated to the inquiry. The party equally can refute that evidence by what they say, which is what they did. Triesmans observations can be used as evidence. Opinions cannot, but what people say certainly what they have experienced can.

Nope. Still doesn’t equate to “rife”, common or widespread. Also, a complaint of anti semitism doesn’t automatically mean that anti semitism has taken place which is why it needs to be investigated. But a person of your corporate experience knows this already and you are desperately clawing for justification to an earlier claim that you can’t prove with hard evidence. Which begs the question as to why you would make such a claim? One suspects your dislike of Corbyn has overridden your ability to consider what is fact and what is emotion. Just my opinion though - admittedly I can’t back it up anything except my analysis of what you’ve posted.....(see what I did there?)

Clearly the LP has failed in dealing with a number of anti semitism complaints correctly which is demonstrated by the renewed complaints process you mention above. However this again doesn’t equate to it being a problem that’s rife amongst the party which as I’ll keep repeating, consists of 500,000 members. Sooner or later I’m hoping the penny will drop here and you’ll understand why I keep returning to this point.

Not sure why you keep bringing Corbyn and conspiracy theories into this as I’ve made no such defence of him.......

BTW - what is your view on alleged Tory Islamaphobia? Would you not consider a poll showing that nearly 50% of Tory members surveyed don’t want a Muslim PM concerning? Or that 45% believe parts of the UK are under Sharia law?

“The way charges of anti-Semitism are being used in Britain to undermine the Corbyn-led Labour Party is not only a disgrace, but also –to put it simply – an insult to the memory of the victims of the Holocaust,” Noam Chomsky.

Not that you’ll see his comments in the MSM, obviously.

I don’t know why you keep talking about 500,000 members. At no time have I accused the membership as a whole of being racist, that is not my style. Both Labour and Tory parties are I’m sure full of decent people. And not so decent people too. I look forward to you taking a similar stance at the frequent “all Tories are scum” type comments that get made, or the all Brexiteers or remainers. I do wonder if you are a Labour volunteer or something.

The anti Semitic issues in the party have been well documented I have formed my opinion, you yours. Sufficient for the party to be investigated, sufficient for senior party members to be critical, sufficient for lifelong party members to resign, sufficient for MPs to resign, sufficient for a new investigation process to be initiated, sufficient for former employees to be prepared to talk on TV. Sufficient for me to believe it is a major issue. Sufficient for me to think we are not talking about a few complaints but a commonplace occurrence. Sufficient for me to believe some of the complaints are justified. If these issues were isolated or uncommon it would be a non issue. Maybe I’m wrong, don’t think so. Formby is fighting to stave off an adverse investigation outcome. Hope she succeeds. If Labour gets a caning The electorate loses.

Islamaphobia in the Tory party. My guess, it exists. Should complaints be lodged they should be investigated and if people considered guilty, kicked out of the party and never allowed back. Never, even should they offer apologies, zero tolerance. As for BoJo. My opinions of him have been posted elsewhere and they are not complimentary. The thoughts of a GE with Corbyn and Johnson as the choices don’t inspire.

Time to end “rifegate”

I am happy to replace the term I used “rife” with one used by Jennie Formby. BBC news for context, “ prevalent”

To be clear. the definition of the word rife includes but is not limited to, Widespread; common; universal and more.

Whereas the word Prevalent is defined as Widespread, common, frequent, universal and more.

Happy for language exparts to share the differences.

Therefore I am happy to use Formbys wording rather than mine.

" Should complaints be lodged they should be investigated and if people considered guilty, kicked out of the party and never allowed back. Never, even should they offer apologies, zero tolerance."

Agreed, but when a Tory councillor was reported for on-line islamaphobia and duly investigated, found guilty and kicked out she had to be quickly reinstated as the party would have lost control of the council. If there is one thing to be learned from Brexit is that the survival of the Tory Party comes first everytime regardless of the collateral damage.

Mikero

Mikero wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:39 am " Should complaints be lodged they should be investigated and if people considered guilty, kicked out of the party and never allowed back. Never, even should they offer apologies, zero tolerance."

Agreed, but when a Tory councillor was reported for on-line islamaphobia and duly investigated, found guilty and kicked out she had to be quickly reinstated as the party would have lost control of the council. If there is one thing to be learned from Brexit is that the survival of the Tory Party comes first everytime regardless of the collateral damage.

Mikero

You will not find me defending the Tory party over instances of islamaphobia.

My view remains, people found guilty of islamaphobia, anti-semitism and the like should be expelled, permanently, from a party. I don’t care whether they are mates with the boss or in marginal seats. Politics in general needs to clean up its act. The fact that the Tory party contains its share of racists in no way excuses the current issues in Labour, which at long last are being acknowledged and being dealt with.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:52 pm“all Tories are scum”

Not all of them are scum, of course.

Some are just a bit dim and have been conned.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:52 am

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:52 pm“all Tories are scum”

Not all of them are scum, of course.

Some are just a bit dim and have been conned.

A definition that I’m sure can be applied to many people in all parties. But it’s massive progress for you to acknowledge that not all Tories are scum. Not all politicians are scum, full stop. in fact I would venture to suggest many politicians are decent, hard working people with a genuine desire to serve their constituents.

When the Steven Lawrance inquiry found that the Metropolitan Police Force was "Institutionally Racist" they did not claim that the Chief Constable was racist or quantify how many officers were racist. Their point was that when the structures, methods of operation, training and disciplinary procedures militate against racism being dealt with the organisation can only be racist.

This is being mirrored in both the Labour and Tory parties. It does not matter how many people are antisemetic or islamaphobic, that is a pointless argument, it is the way they operate that makes them institutionally racist. Remember they do not run like a business. They have cumbersome commitee structures, especially the Labour Party where much of the staff come from a trade union background, where it can tortuous to get anything down. Beleive me I have been there.

If ever the old saying "too many cheifs and not enough indians" was appropriate it is in political parties where just about everything is ego driven.

Mikero

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:52 pm I don’t know why you keep talking about 500,000 members. At no time have I accused the membership as a whole of being racist, that is not my style. Both Labour and Tory parties are I’m sure full of decent people. And not so decent people too. I look forward to you taking a similar stance at the frequent “all Tories are scum” type comments that get made, or the all Brexiteers or remainers. I do wonder if you are a Labour volunteer or something.

The anti Semitic issues in the party have been well documented I have formed my opinion, you yours. Sufficient for the party to be investigated, sufficient for senior party members to be critical, sufficient for lifelong party members to resign, sufficient for MPs to resign, sufficient for a new investigation process to be initiated, sufficient for former employees to be prepared to talk on TV. Sufficient for me to believe it is a major issue. Sufficient for me to think we are not talking about a few complaints but a commonplace occurrence. Sufficient for me to believe some of the complaints are justified. If these issues were isolated or uncommon it would be a non issue. Maybe I’m wrong, don’t think so. Formby is fighting to stave off an adverse investigation outcome. Hope she succeeds. If Labour gets a caning The electorate loses.

Islamaphobia in the Tory party. My guess, it exists. Should complaints be lodged they should be investigated and if people considered guilty, kicked out of the party and never allowed back. Never, even should they offer apologies, zero tolerance. As for BoJo. My opinions of him have been posted elsewhere and they are not complimentary. The thoughts of a GE with Corbyn and Johnson as the choices don’t inspire.

When you made the statement that anti-Semitism is rife in the labour party, were you not referring to the membership then? I've not said you've accused the whole membership but by making the aforementioned statement, you must accept that the term "rife" is a totally disproportionate term to use for 0.2% of the membership so far accused of anti-Semitism. I'd suggest respectfully that you're using hyperbolic language here - to be fair, plenty of our elected representatives are guilty of this so you're in esteemed company.

I'm not a labour volunteer - my politics do tend to fall slightly left of centre but in general I tend to veer away from political discussion on here as it usually descends into farce and insult quite quickly thus detracting from levelled debate although I'm all for shining a light on every party's shortcomings. What does get my goat is how the MSM are content to focus deeply on Corbyn's failings and past actions / utterances (some of which clearly requires scrutiny) whilst conveniently ignoring equivalent islamophobia amongst the tory party who are deeply responsible for the entire sh*t-fest this country has turned into. You don't need to be a partisan Corbynite to recognise that Tory led austerity and Brexit have dragged this country into a mess that will take decades to recover from. And yet, you are a prime example of how the disproportionate coverage of the anti-Semitism issue has been allowed to distract your gaze from all that's around you - "nothing to see here, move along". Of course anti-Semitism is a major issue, however right now and more so is Brexit, child poverty, erosion of employment rights, housing and a myriad of other domestic issues currently being ignored by the most toxic of governments this country has seen. And this is before Johnson becomes PM.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:28 am Time to end “rifegate”

I am happy to replace the term I used “rife” with one used by Jennie Formby. BBC news for context, “ prevalent”

To be clear. the definition of the word rife includes but is not limited to, Widespread; common; universal and more.

Whereas the word Prevalent is defined as Widespread, common, frequent, universal and more.

Happy for language exparts to share the differences.

Therefore I am happy to use Formbys wording rather than mine.

Once again I despair. Formby hasn't said anti-Semitism is prevalent. What she says in response to Tom Watson is : "you are complicit in creating a perception that anti-Semitism is more prevalent in the Labour Party than wider society".

Please let me know if you need this further explained to you.

Why are you entertaining the twazzock?

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:14 am Why are you entertaining the twazzock?

Because I'm not sure it's an act - I think he genuinely considers himself to be a heavyweight thinker yet all he demonstrates is an ability to be entirely led to whichever conclusion the media and ultimately the power base wants him to reach. Sadly, he's more reflective of the general populace who get their opinions and beliefs from facebook meme's / newspapers etc rather than the evidence of their own eyes. Keep doffing those caps fellas.

It's definitely not an act. But that's no reason to waste your time on him.

admin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:13 am

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:52 pm I don’t know why you keep talking about 500,000 members. At no time have I accused the membership as a whole of being racist, that is not my style. Both Labour and Tory parties are I’m sure full of decent people. And not so decent people too. I look forward to you taking a similar stance at the frequent “all Tories are scum” type comments that get made, or the all Brexiteers or remainers. I do wonder if you are a Labour volunteer or something.

The anti Semitic issues in the party have been well documented I have formed my opinion, you yours. Sufficient for the party to be investigated, sufficient for senior party members to be critical, sufficient for lifelong party members to resign, sufficient for MPs to resign, sufficient for a new investigation process to be initiated, sufficient for former employees to be prepared to talk on TV. Sufficient for me to believe it is a major issue. Sufficient for me to think we are not talking about a few complaints but a commonplace occurrence. Sufficient for me to believe some of the complaints are justified. If these issues were isolated or uncommon it would be a non issue. Maybe I’m wrong, don’t think so. Formby is fighting to stave off an adverse investigation outcome. Hope she succeeds. If Labour gets a caning The electorate loses.

Islamaphobia in the Tory party. My guess, it exists. Should complaints be lodged they should be investigated and if people considered guilty, kicked out of the party and never allowed back. Never, even should they offer apologies, zero tolerance. As for BoJo. My opinions of him have been posted elsewhere and they are not complimentary. The thoughts of a GE with Corbyn and Johnson as the choices don’t inspire.

When you made the statement that anti-Semitism is rife in the labour party, were you not referring to the membership then? I've not said you've accused the whole membership but by making the aforementioned statement, you must accept that the term "rife" is a totally disproportionate term to use for 0.2% of the membership so far accused of anti-Semitism. I'd suggest respectfully that you're using hyperbolic language here - to be fair, plenty of our elected representatives are guilty of this so you're in esteemed company.

I'm not a labour volunteer - my politics do tend to fall slightly left of centre but in general I tend to veer away from political discussion on here as it usually descends into farce and insult quite quickly thus detracting from levelled debate although I'm all for shining a light on every party's shortcomings. What does get my goat is how the MSM are content to focus deeply on Corbyn's failings and past actions / utterances (some of which clearly requires scrutiny) whilst conveniently ignoring equivalent islamophobia amongst the tory party who are deeply responsible for the entire sh*t-fest this country has turned into. You don't need to be a partisan Corbynite to recognise that Tory led austerity and Brexit have dragged this country into a mess that will take decades to recover from yet. And yet, you are a prime example of how the anti-Semitism has been allowed to distract your gaze from all that's around you - "nothing to see here, move along". Of course anti-Semitism is a major issue, however so is Brexit, so is child poverty, erosion of employment rights, housing and a myriad of other domestic issues currently being ignore by the most toxic of governments this country has seen.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:28 am Time to end “rifegate”

I am happy to replace the term I used “rife” with one used by Jennie Formby. BBC news for context, “ prevalent”

To be clear. the definition of the word rife includes but is not limited to, Widespread; common; universal and more.

Whereas the word Prevalent is defined as Widespread, common, frequent, universal and more.

Happy for language exparts to share the differences.

Therefore I am happy to use Formbys wording rather than mine.

Once again I despair. Formby hasn't said anti-Semitism is prevalent. What she says in response to Tom Watson is : "you are complicit in creating a perception that anti-Semitism is more prevalent in the Labour Party than wider society".

Please let me know if you need this further explained to you.

I did not say she said it was prevalent, once again you are trying to put words in my mouth. I even suggested reading the article for context, I cannot be more open than that for fairness. Her wording is very clear in its message and one I am happy with. And I repeat for the third time, at no time have I accused the rank and file members, the majority whom I am sure are decent folk.

What I will add is that throughout this debate I have tried to act with dignity and respect when arguing my corner. I suggest you do the same.

Not sure I can add much more. You're embarrassing yourself if you're now about-facing on Formby's words which you happily relied on earlier.

You've replaced "rife" with "prevalent" (even though these carry almost entirely the same meaning) clearly on the basis that Formby has used the same terms yet conveniently ignored the context in how she's used "prevalent". And you know it.

And please don't throw the dignity thing in my direction. The only thing that's undignified is your inability to acknowledge where you're wrong.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:20 am It's definitely not an act. But that's no reason to waste your time on him.

No, sadly it doesn't look like it does it?

Even more sadly, I don't think he's alone - if anything he's a prime example of the majority who've lost the ability to form their own opinion and are happy being led by the nose towards wherever the elite powerbase and MSM want the cap-doffers to go.