Independent Leyton Orient Forum

How the fu*k are any of these plans gonna work if only 19% I think it was of people are isolating when told to?

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:52 pm How the fu*k are any of these plans gonna work if only 19% I think it was of people are isolating when told to?

I think the gist of the recent open letter was to allow people to go about their routine life and only the old and vulnerable isolate. If they don’t, they may die. So most probably will comply. Of course the impact on the NHS is a key consideration. If that 19% is true it suggests many are going about normal life already.

One of the issues right now is tracking down people who should isolate. 63% I think was a number I heard, that is just not good enough.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:16 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:53 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:48 pm

I give up. Please suggest where I have offered solutions. Stop making up stuff. I have not. I am not. I will not. I am however interested in what the (Real) experts have to say. I recognise their differences in opinion. Differences that have been clear from day 1 one way or another. I acknowledge that it’s near impossible to formulate an absolute perfect solution.

I repeat. All I have highlighted was that different experts have different opinions. Simple really.

What you have been doing since Day One+ is to try and portray that "it's a Worldwide problem, nobody has all the answers, the government is doing it's best, experts differ in opinion - so don't just blame the government" etc, etc, et-bloody-cetera. You're masquerading as "Mr Reasonable" when in truth you're just a Tory Government apologist. Many have already sussed that out already. You'll need to up your game.

If you believe I’m an apologist for Johnson then my friend you are nuts. I’ve never made any secret about my dislike for a man who I have described as dangerous. Long before he was PM. Nor have I ever made any secret of my Labour roots and absolute disgust with Corbyn, nor my support for Blair. Take the blinkers off. I vote for the best of the choices available, god help us but that was Johnson. Much of the electorate agreed. 80 majority.

But it Is a worldwide problem. You disagree? Of course it is
Experts have been disagreeing since this mess started. You disagree? Of course they Have.
Nobody has all the answers. You disagree. You think anybody has got this completely right? Prey tell.
The Government is doing its best. Of frigging course it is. We all have opinions about whether it’s good enough or not.

At no time have I politicised this issue. Some, frankly idiots, say it’s all crap because it’s the Tories, out of political ideology. I’ve no time for that. Stupidity beyond comprehension. The Tories have been criticised at times, and rightly so, like the Governments of Sweden, France, Germany, Spain, Australia, Italy and probably more. That’s the nature of the issue.

Your labour roots?

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:03 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:16 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:53 pm

What you have been doing since Day One+ is to try and portray that "it's a Worldwide problem, nobody has all the answers, the government is doing it's best, experts differ in opinion - so don't just blame the government" etc, etc, et-bloody-cetera. You're masquerading as "Mr Reasonable" when in truth you're just a Tory Government apologist. Many have already sussed that out already. You'll need to up your game.

If you believe I’m an apologist for Johnson then my friend you are nuts. I’ve never made any secret about my dislike for a man who I have described as dangerous. Long before he was PM. Nor have I ever made any secret of my Labour roots and absolute disgust with Corbyn, nor my support for Blair. Take the blinkers off. I vote for the best of the choices available, god help us but that was Johnson. Much of the electorate agreed. 80 majority.

But it Is a worldwide problem. You disagree? Of course it is
Experts have been disagreeing since this mess started. You disagree? Of course they Have.
Nobody has all the answers. You disagree. You think anybody has got this completely right? Prey tell.
The Government is doing its best. Of frigging course it is. We all have opinions about whether it’s good enough or not.

At no time have I politicised this issue. Some, frankly idiots, say it’s all crap because it’s the Tories, out of political ideology. I’ve no time for that. Stupidity beyond comprehension. The Tories have been criticised at times, and rightly so, like the Governments of Sweden, France, Germany, Spain, Australia, Italy and probably more. That’s the nature of the issue.

Your labour roots?

Gets you every time

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:04 pm

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:03 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:16 pm

If you believe I’m an apologist for Johnson then my friend you are nuts. I’ve never made any secret about my dislike for a man who I have described as dangerous. Long before he was PM. Nor have I ever made any secret of my Labour roots and absolute disgust with Corbyn, nor my support for Blair. Take the blinkers off. I vote for the best of the choices available, god help us but that was Johnson. Much of the electorate agreed. 80 majority.

But it Is a worldwide problem. You disagree? Of course it is
Experts have been disagreeing since this mess started. You disagree? Of course they Have.
Nobody has all the answers. You disagree. You think anybody has got this completely right? Prey tell.
The Government is doing its best. Of frigging course it is. We all have opinions about whether it’s good enough or not.

At no time have I politicised this issue. Some, frankly idiots, say it’s all crap because it’s the Tories, out of political ideology. I’ve no time for that. Stupidity beyond comprehension. The Tories have been criticised at times, and rightly so, like the Governments of Sweden, France, Germany, Spain, Australia, Italy and probably more. That’s the nature of the issue.

Your labour roots?

Gets you every time

Born in Hackney, lived in a Clapton prefab, schools in Homerton, Stepney and Bethnal Green. Mum worked in a clothing sweat shop, dad worked for British Rail, as did I for a few years.

Real Tory material don’t you think. Labour roots.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:04 pm

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:03 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:16 pm

If you believe I’m an apologist for Johnson then my friend you are nuts. I’ve never made any secret about my dislike for a man who I have described as dangerous. Long before he was PM. Nor have I ever made any secret of my Labour roots and absolute disgust with Corbyn, nor my support for Blair. Take the blinkers off. I vote for the best of the choices available, god help us but that was Johnson. Much of the electorate agreed. 80 majority.

But it Is a worldwide problem. You disagree? Of course it is
Experts have been disagreeing since this mess started. You disagree? Of course they Have.
Nobody has all the answers. You disagree. You think anybody has got this completely right? Prey tell.
The Government is doing its best. Of frigging course it is. We all have opinions about whether it’s good enough or not.

At no time have I politicised this issue. Some, frankly idiots, say it’s all crap because it’s the Tories, out of political ideology. I’ve no time for that. Stupidity beyond comprehension. The Tories have been criticised at times, and rightly so, like the Governments of Sweden, France, Germany, Spain, Australia, Italy and probably more. That’s the nature of the issue.

Your labour roots?

Gets you every time

Can’t resist, I know.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:11 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:04 pm

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:03 pm

Your labour roots?

Gets you every time

Born in Hackney, lived in a Clapton prefab, schools in Homerton, Stepney and Bethnal Green. Mum worked in a clothing sweat shop, dad worked for British Rail, as did I for a few years.

Real Tory material don’t you think. Labour roots.

And?

Labour roots my arse.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:32 pm Perhaps I should have said that for each expert with one opinion you could find another with a different opinion. But none of this is an exact science and despite 6 months of learning experts continue to disagree.

That's complete trot. You might get that impression from watching newsnight because their idea of balance is that every sensible opinion must be countered by someone from the fringe nutjob list they have.

There are some people who have signed that letter who could undoubtedly be considered experts in the field of epidemiology but having people sign up as scientists and medical professionals is an obvious con. The views of a metallurgist or a dental hygienist are not expert views and deserve no more consideration than my mad uncle Frank's.

For every 'expert' that advocates a free for all there literally hundreds saying the opposite. Look at the Royal society of medicine, the International Epidemiological society, any recognised group of experts you like. The consensus is clear.

Of course knowledge has developed over the course of the pandemic and there are still things that are unknown, but a lot of it is absolutely an exact f*cking science, you just don't understand it.

Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:14 am

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:32 pm Perhaps I should have said that for each expert with one opinion you could find another with a different opinion. But none of this is an exact science and despite 6 months of learning experts continue to disagree.

That's complete trot. You might get that impression from watching newsnight because their idea of balance is that every sensible opinion must be countered by someone from the fringe nutjob list they have.

There are some people who have signed that letter who could undoubtedly be considered experts in the field of epidemiology but having people sign up as scientists and medical professionals is an obvious con. The views of a metallurgist or a dental hygienist are not expert views and deserve no more consideration than my mad uncle Frank's.

For every 'expert' that advocates a free for all there literally hundreds saying the opposite. Look at the Royal society of medicine, the International Epidemiological society, any recognised group of experts you like. The consensus is clear.

Of course knowledge has developed over the course of the pandemic and there are still things that are unknown, but a lot of it is absolutely an exact f*cking science, you just don't understand it.

I’ll delve deeper into the RSM but from memory, their Webinars state that views expressed are those of the speakers and not the RSM. But I’ll look further. The Royal college of Psychiatry recently issues warnings about the effects of lockdown as did another recognised body whose name escapes me, But again I have no knowledge if they represent the official view or individuals. There is absolutely no doubt throughout this pandemic that opinions have differed. And quite dramatically. And experts have been wrong. The WHO at one point early on suggested the virus was not transmitted between people!

However. If you think Covid is an exact science, well that is an amazing thing to say. Really! And if our understanding was that great then I would hope for more consensus within our scientific community. Disagreements reign supreme, from pub closing times, to masks, to the rule of six. Schools opening And so on. Even Rishi came under fire for his meal deals. Exact. You gotta be kidding. There is nothing exact about Covid. We don’t even know how accurate daily numbers are, the true impact on children, recovery periods ad infinitum.

But there are two different aspects at play. One is about the virus and it’s impacts, like a long-Covid where we are now trying to understand any long term impacts of the thing and that is highly relevant when considering the second aspect which is how Governments best deal with it.

What I love is when people keep telling me I don’t understand. My understanding is likely to be on par with the majority. But the difference between us is you have taken up a position that you feel is right. Done deal. Whereas I continue to try and understand more, because I realise there is so much more to learn. You keep your mind closed, I’ll keep mine open.

One of the first things to get your head around is that science is the process of understanding how things work by observation and experiment, deciding what to do with that knowledge for the benefit of a population is politics.

All the disagreements you talk about are political. One of the clues is that you're mentioning politicians and decisions made by them.

Is there anything worse than one of these daily mail reading old timers who genuinely believe they have an ‘open mind’?

Opinion is divided over whether or not the Earth is flat (10 seconds googling with find you at least one "scientist" who says it is). Scientists have differing views and these views, regardless of the qualification of the "scientists", and regardless of the proportion of "scientists" on each side of the debate, must be given equal consideration. THEREFORE the Earth might be flat (probably a 50% chance, since science is divided on the subject). No. Question about. It. Am I not. Clever?

Hey, don't blame me, I'm just reporting what's being said, and asking questions. This "balanced open mind" schtick is quite fun, once you get into it.

Which scientists say the earth is flat?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-new ... y-14201050

That was 8 seconds

Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:23 am One of the first things to get your head around is that science is the process of understanding how things work by observation and experiment, deciding what to do with that knowledge for the benefit of a population is politics.

All the disagreements you talk about are political. One of the clues is that you're mentioning politicians and decisions made by them.

If you think all the disagreements are political then let’s not bother discussing any further. It was a disagreement between scientists that kicked off this whole thing in the first place.

Look at the great Barrington Declaration, Claiming endorsement by 9000 doctors and medical experts, dismissed by the Government as an unproven assumption after discussing the full range of scientific opinion. Yet another new study questioning the value of lockdown, even suggesting it’s not working, doing more harm. The science is not exact, scientific opinion is divided. The situation is nebulous. We can’t even be sure we understand the full range of symptoms let alone the long term effects. Having a fixed set of ideas at this time is silly. We continue to learn by the day, we are light years from having all the answers. This situation from any angle is far from exact.

I don’t know the best way forward, or even if there is a good way forward. The Government, probably all Governments, are taking note of scientific opinion. But thus far it remains opinion. No one knows for sure.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:59 am https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-new ... y-14201050

That was 8 seconds

That’s the issue with science. And of course there is a flat earth society I believe. I recall a couple of people on TV a few months ago explaining the proof using science.

But before people accuse me of believing the earth is flat, I don’t. We all know it’s a cuboid.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:59 am https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-new ... y-14201050

That was 8 seconds

A student isnt a scientist.

average age of death from covid-19 is 82.4

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:16 am

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:59 am https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-new ... y-14201050

That was 8 seconds

A student isnt a scientist.

Read it again, he's a graduate with a science degree and therefore his opinion carries exactly the same weight as any astronomer or geologist. (in the bizarre alternate reality that some inhabit)

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:57 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:16 am

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:59 am https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-new ... y-14201050

That was 8 seconds

A student isnt a scientist.

Read it again, he's a graduate with a science degree and therefore his opinion carries exactly the same weight as any astronomer or geologist. (in the bizarre alternate reality that some inhabit)

We don’t know the question. But the answer is 42. I’m sure the graduate has a heart of gold and drinks plenty of tea.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:57 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:16 am

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:59 am https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-new ... y-14201050

That was 8 seconds

A student isnt a scientist.

Read it again, he's a graduate with a science degree and therefore his opinion carries exactly the same weight as any astronomer or geologist. (in the bizarre alternate reality that some inhabit)

How many of the scientists that signed the letter are flat earthers?

Dohnut wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:57 pm So now we have near 4000 scientists and doctors suggesting we need to develop herd immunity within the vast majority who suffer few if any lasting symptoms of Covid whilst protecting the vulnerable. The reasons being for the majority there is little real danger, however, the impact of lockdown could be an additional 74,000 deaths, a destroyed economy and a mental health crisis.

Other scientists completely disagree with this approach.

So after 6 months “experts” remain divided over the best way to move forward. Fantastic.

Turns out Dohnut, some of the names on the list include; 'Dr Person Fakename', 'Dr Harold Shipman', 'Dr Johnny Bananas' and 'Dominic Cummings of Durnham Univercity (sic)'. Plus a bunch of homeopaths, massage therapists and hypnotherapists.

You couldn't make it up. Well, actually some did.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronvairus- ... r-12099947

The point is, the current strategy is crap.

The current strategy may be crap, but it may also be the least worst overall. To be clear, the current strategy is;

"To suppress Coronovirus while protecting our economy and education until a vaccine arrives."

And this strategy needs to be read in conjunction with the Chancellor's statement that UK government will do what it can to protect "viable jobs", but we face a period of "permanent economic adjustment".

The government have been awful at communication. As can be seen in this thread, it is perfect understandable why people will want to challenge the current strategy. So the government need to explain why they have decided upon this strategy and, unfortunately, they're going to have to keep repeating it.

That being said, it is concerning that we appear to have no other viable option right now than to bet the house on there being a safe and widely distributed vaccine any time soon. These pandemics are really f*cking sh*t.