Independent Leyton Orient Forum

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:17 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:59 am From one socially distanced visit per week? Nonsense.

The crusties wouldn't stand for it of course

I know you're just trying for a rise but the last sentence is bollox of course. What choice would the oldies have?

Interestingly, if reversed, i.e. if it was the young ones who were more affected, and the oldies were asked to curtail their going out/social lives (many do still have them you know) I'd wager there would be huge compliance from the older generation to minimise deaths in the younger generation.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:07 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:17 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:59 am From one socially distanced visit per week? Nonsense.

The crusties wouldn't stand for it of course

I know you're just trying for a rise but the last sentence is bollox of course. What choice would the oldies have?

Interestingly, if reversed, i.e. if it was the young ones who were more affected, and the oldies were asked to curtail their going out/social lives (many do still have them you know) I'd wager there would be huge compliance from the older generation to minimise deaths in the younger generation.

Whilst Caca is obviously up to his usual tricks, I don't buy the line that the olds would accept it.

Thinking back to when it first kicked off, only my personal experience of course, but it was generally men of a certain age - late 50s and upwards - who flouted all the supermarket etiquette. We all know the sort.

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:52 pm I've not bothered looking that deep, however it'll probably be people who are older or with comorbidities. But, regardless of that, the initial strategy, which most people would accept as reasonable, was to protect NHS capacity.

Notwithstanding the excellent points made by Mick McQuaid and A Pedant, it is understandable why some people will want to explore alternative strategies as options. Especially those who are concerned about what this will mean for their children. But once the NHS is threatened then I suspect quite a few of those people will accept things.

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:13 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:52 pm I've not bothered looking that deep, however it'll probably be people who are older or with comorbidities. But, regardless of that, the initial strategy, which most people would accept as reasonable, was to protect NHS capacity.

Notwithstanding the excellent points made by Mick McQuaid and A Pedant, it is understandable why some people will want to explore alternative strategies as options. Especially those who are concerned about what this will mean for their children. But once the NHS is threatened then I suspect quite a few of those people will accept things.

Ah so the strategy is far from squashed. My plan actually protects the old more than the status quo. I'm not sure most olds want protection, they want to live too.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:28 pm…..
…. All of us, independent of age group, need to understand that we all need to work together to combat the virus.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:28 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:13 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:52 pm I've not bothered looking that deep, however it'll probably be people who are older or with comorbidities. But, regardless of that, the initial strategy, which most people would accept as reasonable, was to protect NHS capacity.

Notwithstanding the excellent points made by Mick McQuaid and A Pedant, it is understandable why some people will want to explore alternative strategies as options. Especially those who are concerned about what this will mean for their children. But once the NHS is threatened then I suspect quite a few of those people will accept things.

Ah so the strategy is far from squashed. My plan actually protects the old more than the status quo. I'm not sure most olds want protection, they want to live too.

It's not about "not wanting protection", it's about the fact that isolating just one section of society won't work. All of us, independent of age group, need to understand that we all need to work together to combat the virus.

Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:54 pm Alright dohnut. Here's a go at an outline of a plan because your solutions are plain nuts.

1. Near immediate 2 week strict national lockdown to reduce transmission significantly and to allow changes in structure to be put in place

2. Temperature checks everywhere. It's the moat reliable and earliest sign of symptomatic infections. Everyone should be tested going into every building. If they have a temperature there are arrangements made to be taken home to isolate securely ( pay people furloughed or out of work)

3. Offer proper incentives to nurses and carers for vulnerable people to work away from home in a pattern of 4 week on and 2 off to form a secure bubble with those they care for. Recruit for people willing to do this. Use hotels for this bubble (negotiated rate but you might as well use them as pay furlough). People coming into the bubble tested and clear before working.

4. Scrap all targets on testing and focus on targeted and quick testing where needed. 100,000 tests back in 24 hours where needed are better than 300,000 that take 5 days for a result.

5.Everyone who can work from home works from home until levels are vastly reduced, f*** Pret.

6. Chase Dido into the sea and give all the resources to local public health teams who already have the experience of contact tracing. Rigorous contact tracing and testing of these contacts is whats needed and that's where testing should be focused.

7. Proper follow up on whether people who should isolate are. Visits from health teams and fines for non compliance. If you work from home or in a non essential business you isolate, you don't need a test.

8. Only exempt from face masks with a medical certificate for things like food shopping and transport. For leisure activities, tough tits, can't wear one then don't come in.

9.. Proper risk assessment process for businesses being open based on the clear evidence that the longer people stay together in an enclosed space the higher the risk of infection. Covid safe in enclosed spaces is bollocks. Museums are probably pretty safe.

10. Pubs stay shut until levels are much much lower. People shouldn't be dying for a pint.

11. Schools stay open but resources shared evenly. Private schools to take on additional students to equalise class numbers. I admit this has actually has no benefit but if the current government makes decisions to suit their agenda of privatisation then so can I.

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:19 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:28 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:13 pm
Ah so the strategy is far from squashed. My plan actually protects the old more than the status quo. I'm not sure most olds want protection, they want to live too.

It's not about "not wanting protection", it's about the fact that isolating just one section of society won't work. All of us, independent of age group, need to understand that we all need to work together to combat the virus.

Nice soundbite, but not much logic behind it.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:48 pm

Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:54 pm Alright dohnut. Here's a go at an outline of a plan because your solutions are plain nuts.

1. Near immediate 2 week strict national lockdown to reduce transmission significantly and to allow changes in structure to be put in place

2. Temperature checks everywhere. It's the moat reliable and earliest sign of symptomatic infections. Everyone should be tested going into every building. If they have a temperature there are arrangements made to be taken home to isolate securely ( pay people furloughed or out of work)

3. Offer proper incentives to nurses and carers for vulnerable people to work away from home in a pattern of 4 week on and 2 off to form a secure bubble with those they care for. Recruit for people willing to do this. Use hotels for this bubble (negotiated rate but you might as well use them as pay furlough). People coming into the bubble tested and clear before working.

4. Scrap all targets on testing and focus on targeted and quick testing where needed. 100,000 tests back in 24 hours where needed are better than 300,000 that take 5 days for a result.

5.Everyone who can work from home works from home until levels are vastly reduced, f*** Pret.

6. Chase Dido into the sea and give all the resources to local public health teams who already have the experience of contact tracing. Rigorous contact tracing and testing of these contacts is whats needed and that's where testing should be focused.

7. Proper follow up on whether people who should isolate are. Visits from health teams and fines for non compliance. If you work from home or in a non essential business you isolate, you don't need a test.

8. Only exempt from face masks with a medical certificate for things like food shopping and transport. For leisure activities, tough tits, can't wear one then don't come in.

9.. Proper risk assessment process for businesses being open based on the clear evidence that the longer people stay together in an enclosed space the higher the risk of infection. Covid safe in enclosed spaces is bollocks. Museums are probably pretty safe.

10. Pubs stay shut until levels are much much lower. People shouldn't be dying for a pint.

11. Schools stay open but resources shared evenly. Private schools to take on additional students to equalise class numbers. I admit this has actually has no benefit but if the current government makes decisions to suit their agenda of privatisation then so can I.

I give up. Please suggest where I have offered solutions. Stop making up stuff. I have not. I am not. I will not. I am however interested in what the (Real) experts have to say. I recognise their differences in opinion. Differences that have been clear from day 1 one way or another. I acknowledge that it’s near impossible to formulate an absolute perfect solution.

I repeat. All I have highlighted was that different experts have different opinions. Simple really.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:48 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:19 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:28 pm

It's not about "not wanting protection", it's about the fact that isolating just one section of society won't work. All of us, independent of age group, need to understand that we all need to work together to combat the virus.

Nice soundbite, but not much logic behind it.

Ha. No soundbite mate, just my honest thoughts. And for the logic behind it, see Mick McQuaid's/A Pedant's post(s) above. There's no point in me posting more or less exactly the same is there?

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:59 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:48 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:19 pm
Nice soundbite, but not much logic behind it.

Ha. No soundbite mate, just my honest thoughts. And for the logic behind it, see Mick McQuaid's/A Pedant's post(s) above. There's no point in me posting more or less exactly the same is there?

Nobody has defeated my strategy yet.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:53 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:48 pm

Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:54 pm Alright dohnut. Here's a go at an outline of a plan because your solutions are plain nuts.

1. Near immediate 2 week strict national lockdown to reduce transmission significantly and to allow changes in structure to be put in place

2. Temperature checks everywhere. It's the moat reliable and earliest sign of symptomatic infections. Everyone should be tested going into every building. If they have a temperature there are arrangements made to be taken home to isolate securely ( pay people furloughed or out of work)

3. Offer proper incentives to nurses and carers for vulnerable people to work away from home in a pattern of 4 week on and 2 off to form a secure bubble with those they care for. Recruit for people willing to do this. Use hotels for this bubble (negotiated rate but you might as well use them as pay furlough). People coming into the bubble tested and clear before working.

4. Scrap all targets on testing and focus on targeted and quick testing where needed. 100,000 tests back in 24 hours where needed are better than 300,000 that take 5 days for a result.

5.Everyone who can work from home works from home until levels are vastly reduced, f*** Pret.

6. Chase Dido into the sea and give all the resources to local public health teams who already have the experience of contact tracing. Rigorous contact tracing and testing of these contacts is whats needed and that's where testing should be focused.

7. Proper follow up on whether people who should isolate are. Visits from health teams and fines for non compliance. If you work from home or in a non essential business you isolate, you don't need a test.

8. Only exempt from face masks with a medical certificate for things like food shopping and transport. For leisure activities, tough tits, can't wear one then don't come in.

9.. Proper risk assessment process for businesses being open based on the clear evidence that the longer people stay together in an enclosed space the higher the risk of infection. Covid safe in enclosed spaces is bollocks. Museums are probably pretty safe.

10. Pubs stay shut until levels are much much lower. People shouldn't be dying for a pint.

11. Schools stay open but resources shared evenly. Private schools to take on additional students to equalise class numbers. I admit this has actually has no benefit but if the current government makes decisions to suit their agenda of privatisation then so can I.

I give up. Please suggest where I have offered solutions. Stop making up stuff. I have not. I am not. I will not. I am however interested in what the (Real) experts have to say. I recognise their differences in opinion. Differences that have been clear from day 1 one way or another. I acknowledge that it’s near impossible to formulate an absolute perfect solution.

I repeat. All I have highlighted was that different experts have different opinions. Simple really.

What you have been doing since Day One+ is to try and portray that "it's a Worldwide problem, nobody has all the answers, the government is doing it's best, experts differ in opinion - so don't just blame the government" etc, etc, et-bloody-cetera. You're masquerading as "Mr Reasonable" when in truth you're just a Tory Government apologist. Many have already sussed that out already. You'll need to up your game.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:21 pm So your whole and total point is 'Scientists disagree'?

Thanks for your contribution.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:39 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:21 pm So your whole and total point is 'Scientists disagree'?

Thanks for your contribution.

Yup.

Following a published newsworthy letter and resulting disagreements, all from experts, I made this simple, obvious, observation. I take no responsibility for the crap that followed.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:16 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:53 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:48 pm

I give up. Please suggest where I have offered solutions. Stop making up stuff. I have not. I am not. I will not. I am however interested in what the (Real) experts have to say. I recognise their differences in opinion. Differences that have been clear from day 1 one way or another. I acknowledge that it’s near impossible to formulate an absolute perfect solution.

I repeat. All I have highlighted was that different experts have different opinions. Simple really.

What you have been doing since Day One+ is to try and portray that "it's a Worldwide problem, nobody has all the answers, the government is doing it's best, experts differ in opinion - so don't just blame the government" etc, etc, et-bloody-cetera. You're masquerading as "Mr Reasonable" when in truth you're just a Tory Government apologist. Many have already sussed that out already. You'll need to up your game.

If you believe I’m an apologist for Johnson then my friend you are nuts. I’ve never made any secret about my dislike for a man who I have described as dangerous. Long before he was PM. Nor have I ever made any secret of my Labour roots and absolute disgust with Corbyn, nor my support for Blair. Take the blinkers off. I vote for the best of the choices available, god help us but that was Johnson. Much of the electorate agreed. 80 majority.

But it Is a worldwide problem. You disagree? Of course it is
Experts have been disagreeing since this mess started. You disagree? Of course they Have.
Nobody has all the answers. You disagree. You think anybody has got this completely right? Prey tell.
The Government is doing its best. Of frigging course it is. We all have opinions about whether it’s good enough or not.

At no time have I politicised this issue. Some, frankly idiots, say it’s all crap because it’s the Tories, out of political ideology. I’ve no time for that. Stupidity beyond comprehension. The Tories have been criticised at times, and rightly so, like the Governments of Sweden, France, Germany, Spain, Australia, Italy and probably more. That’s the nature of the issue.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:48 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:39 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:21 pm So your whole and total point is 'Scientists disagree'?

Thanks for your contribution.

Yup.

Following a published newsworthy letter and resulting disagreements, all from experts, I made this simple, obvious, observation. I take no responsibility for the crap that followed.

Some of your subsequent posts weren't that bad. Don't be so hard on yourself

Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:28 pm Sorry, I misread the one where you posted the letter, and thought you were advocating for what they said when that clearly isn't the case.

It's still not evidence that scientists are horribly divided though, the vast majority are saying much the same things actually.

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:02 pm I wouldn't say an expert's opinion 'don't help' really. It might not be right every time but it's silly to say it doesn't help or that they are just offering opinions like the rest of us as if we're offering those opinions with similar knowledge. We aren't.

You have said before about running/overseeing IT things for companies. I'm sure you'll happily admit you didn't know it all. I know nothing at all but you couldn't compare your opinion with mine really, as you're the expert there and I'm not. You might not get it right every time but you'll likely get it right more than me.

When it comes down to expert vs expert a smaller minority (as per the letter) will often be louder than a consensus as that's just news cycles playing out. Particularly when people are looking for a way out from fear, worry, a lack of accountability, whatever.