Independent Leyton Orient Forum

I dunno, I've never had to flee a warzone and be on the receiving end of misinformation from human traffickers before.

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:12 pm

Beradogs wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:02 pm Why don’t we do this then. Why don’t we say that over the next 20 years we will accept say 2million migrants and that is all.

Do you mean 2million in each year, or 100,000 in each year over that 20 year period?
And, either way, what's the admission criteria?
Where's the line in the sand as to who is fortunate and who is not?
How will those who meet the fortunate criteria be prioritised?
What happens to those who try and cheat the system and get caught out?
Who decides on all of the above?
How do we police such a processing facility in France?
It will no doubt require a significant military presence on French soil to keep out the desperate masses who will try their luck regardless of the consequences. How do we and the French square that sovereignty issue?

2m total. 100k a year. As you said earlier, it’s an inevitability that they will come so we may as well try and get some sort of control over the process. It’s out of control at the moment. A lot of those questions like who will be the fortunate ones are an issue now but we can surely come up with a better criteria than the fortunate ones were in one of the boats that didn’t sink. If we are allowing a decent number it would likely push the French to control the channel routes more closely as at least they would feel that we are taking in “our fair share”. Let’s be honest, a lot of this is jealousy at the moment that we have water protecting us while they have hundreds of thousands coming in with no protections. They simply don’t want them in France either.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:29 pm I dunno, I've never had to flee a warzone and be on the receiving end of misinformation from human traffickers before.

I accept that, but if I had got my family out of a hell hole and ended up in a country which was a better place to live I don’t think I would put them at risk just to get to UK.

I don't think either of us are remotely close to being well suited to comment on their motivations, it's a million miles away from anything we can imagine. Desperation can make people do things that may not seem rational.

Story of O wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:47 pm

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:29 pm I dunno, I've never had to flee a warzone and be on the receiving end of misinformation from human traffickers before.

I accept that, but if I had got my family out of a hell hole and ended up in a country which was a better place to live I don’t think I would put them at risk just to get to UK.

I've now heard the question of risk/safety put to many of these people on news reports. And they all answer that they know the risk but that they're willing to take it. Given that I've heard that response quite a few times now, I tend to believe them.

As for why they choose not to stay in France, you have to appreciate that they will have a limited knowledge of comparative systems across different European countries. It's not as if they've gone through a checklist and have appraised the relative risks and benefits of different destinations. Also, despite what anyone may be saying openly, the French authorities will be only too happy to create a hostile environment for them and to encourage their departure (and before anyone starts, we'd do exactly the same if the roles were reversed).

So, they're going by what they have been told/sold by rumour, word of mouth and smugglers. And there is an element of truth in that there is a myth spread across some of these regions that the UK is the land of plentiful, where they will have housing, healthcare, education, jobs and a better life. But when all around you is turning to sh*t and you see no future for yourself or your children, even death perhaps, then you're going to grasp onto any hope. And many will risk their lives for it.

Beradogs wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:37 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:12 pm

Beradogs wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:02 pm Why don’t we do this then. Why don’t we say that over the next 20 years we will accept say 2million migrants and that is all.

Do you mean 2million in each year, or 100,000 in each year over that 20 year period?
And, either way, what's the admission criteria?
Where's the line in the sand as to who is fortunate and who is not?
How will those who meet the fortunate criteria be prioritised?
What happens to those who try and cheat the system and get caught out?
Who decides on all of the above?
How do we police such a processing facility in France?
It will no doubt require a significant military presence on French soil to keep out the desperate masses who will try their luck regardless of the consequences. How do we and the French square that sovereignty issue?

2m total. 100k a year. As you said earlier, it’s an inevitability that they will come so we may as well try and get some sort of control over the process. It’s out of control at the moment. A lot of those questions like who will be the fortunate ones are an issue now but we can surely come up with a better criteria than the fortunate ones were in one of the boats that didn’t sink. If we are allowing a decent number it would likely push the French to control the channel routes more closely as at least they would feel that we are taking in “our fair share”. Let’s be honest, a lot of this is jealousy at the moment that we have water protecting us while they have hundreds of thousands coming in with no protections. They simply don’t want them in France either.

So when we've hit the limit for the year and 500 rock up a day later having destroyed their passports deliberately where do we send them?

France won't take them

Can we just not house them but offer them a free ferry back to france?

Is it not natural, when youre living in a sh*t hole, that you would want to move away from it, to somewhere else?

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:16 pm

Beradogs wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:37 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:12 pm

Do you mean 2million in each year, or 100,000 in each year over that 20 year period?
And, either way, what's the admission criteria?
Where's the line in the sand as to who is fortunate and who is not?
How will those who meet the fortunate criteria be prioritised?
What happens to those who try and cheat the system and get caught out?
Who decides on all of the above?
How do we police such a processing facility in France?
It will no doubt require a significant military presence on French soil to keep out the desperate masses who will try their luck regardless of the consequences. How do we and the French square that sovereignty issue?

2m total. 100k a year. As you said earlier, it’s an inevitability that they will come so we may as well try and get some sort of control over the process. It’s out of control at the moment. A lot of those questions like who will be the fortunate ones are an issue now but we can surely come up with a better criteria than the fortunate ones were in one of the boats that didn’t sink. If we are allowing a decent number it would likely push the French to control the channel routes more closely as at least they would feel that we are taking in “our fair share”. Let’s be honest, a lot of this is jealousy at the moment that we have water protecting us while they have hundreds of thousands coming in with no protections. They simply don’t want them in France either.

So when we've hit the limit for the year and 500 rock up a day later having destroyed their passports deliberately where do we send them?

France won't take them

But that’s the point. They wouldn’t rock up if they knew categorically that the UK would just turn them straight back around again if they did not come through the correct routes. We need to take enough over so many years to placate the leftie lawyers and assorted twitterati and have limits/limits in time to placate the right wing masses. Both sides will have to compromise. Seeing how this country has helped the Hong Kong people with barely a murmur, it’s more likely the right can compromise and allow large numbers in than the liberals agreeing to numbers caps but both will have to bend.I haven’t worked out where the processing centres will be yet.

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:16 pm

Beradogs wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:37 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:12 pm

Do you mean 2million in each year, or 100,000 in each year over that 20 year period?
And, either way, what's the admission criteria?
Where's the line in the sand as to who is fortunate and who is not?
How will those who meet the fortunate criteria be prioritised?
What happens to those who try and cheat the system and get caught out?
Who decides on all of the above?
How do we police such a processing facility in France?
It will no doubt require a significant military presence on French soil to keep out the desperate masses who will try their luck regardless of the consequences. How do we and the French square that sovereignty issue?

2m total. 100k a year. As you said earlier, it’s an inevitability that they will come so we may as well try and get some sort of control over the process. It’s out of control at the moment. A lot of those questions like who will be the fortunate ones are an issue now but we can surely come up with a better criteria than the fortunate ones were in one of the boats that didn’t sink. If we are allowing a decent number it would likely push the French to control the channel routes more closely as at least they would feel that we are taking in “our fair share”. Let’s be honest, a lot of this is jealousy at the moment that we have water protecting us while they have hundreds of thousands coming in with no protections. They simply don’t want them in France either.

So when we've hit the limit for the year and 500 rock up a day later having destroyed their passports deliberately where do we send them?

France won't take them

HA!! a trick question. I love these.

If the 500 turn up after last years limit has been reached then the limit for the new year will have kicked in. Therefore, the answer is to treat them like people and fairly assess their cases according to the Law.

Beradogs wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:59 pm

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:16 pm

Beradogs wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:37 pm

2m total. 100k a year. As you said earlier, it’s an inevitability that they will come so we may as well try and get some sort of control over the process. It’s out of control at the moment. A lot of those questions like who will be the fortunate ones are an issue now but we can surely come up with a better criteria than the fortunate ones were in one of the boats that didn’t sink. If we are allowing a decent number it would likely push the French to control the channel routes more closely as at least they would feel that we are taking in “our fair share”. Let’s be honest, a lot of this is jealousy at the moment that we have water protecting us while they have hundreds of thousands coming in with no protections. They simply don’t want them in France either.

So when we've hit the limit for the year and 500 rock up a day later having destroyed their passports deliberately where do we send them?

France won't take them

But that’s the point. They wouldn’t rock up if they knew categorically that the UK would just turn them straight back around again if they did not come through the correct routes. We need to take enough over so many years to placate the leftie lawyers and assorted twitterati and have limits/limits in time to placate the right wing masses. Both sides will have to compromise. Seeing how this country has helped the Hong Kong people with barely a murmur, it’s more likely the right can compromise and allow large numbers in than the liberals agreeing to numbers caps but both will have to bend.I haven’t worked out where the processing centres will be yet.

Turn them straight back to where?

Flippin' heck. He's got it bang right AGAIN.

Jack wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:53 pm Is it not natural, when youre living in a sh*t hole, that you would want to move away from it, to somewhere else?

Not always young Jack. One may wish to consider staying and unblocking the shoit.

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:17 pm Can we just not house them but offer them a free ferry back to france?

Please change the title of this thread to describe the "migrants" as people. Thank you. Yet another insidiously racist example of the language used on this site.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:10 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:17 pm Can we just not house them but offer them a free ferry back to france?

Please change the title of this thread to describe the "migrants" as people. Thank you. Yet another insidiously racist example of the language used on this site.

The dictionary defines the word migrant as "a person who moves from one place to another, especially in order to find work or better living conditions".

How is that racialist?

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:04 pm

Beradogs wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:59 pm

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:16 pm

So when we've hit the limit for the year and 500 rock up a day later having destroyed their passports deliberately where do we send them?

France won't take them

But that’s the point. They wouldn’t rock up if they knew categorically that the UK would just turn them straight back around again if they did not come through the correct routes. We need to take enough over so many years to placate the leftie lawyers and assorted twitterati and have limits/limits in time to placate the right wing masses. Both sides will have to compromise. Seeing how this country has helped the Hong Kong people with barely a murmur, it’s more likely the right can compromise and allow large numbers in than the liberals agreeing to numbers caps but both will have to bend.I haven’t worked out where the processing centres will be yet.

Turn them straight back to where?

I haven’t worked that bit out either yet.

EastDerehamO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:15 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:10 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:17 pm Can we just not house them but offer them a free ferry back to france?

Please change the title of this thread to describe the "migrants" as people. Thank you. Yet another insidiously racist example of the language used on this site.

The dictionary defines the word migrant as "a person who moves from one place to another, especially in order to find work or better living conditions".

How is that racialist?

Ok. Asylum seekers then. How is that defined in the dictionary?

Beradogs wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:08 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:00 am Bera- where has your '70% are genuine refugees' figure come from?

Was in the guardian and mentioned on Twitter yesterday. Perhaps I have made a rookie mistake. Hotdogs proving my point by even refusing to acknowledge millions could come never mind giving a figure that he would be comfortable with.

Yes we could be looking at millions in the many years to come. But right now we’re not talking about figures anywhere near that.

I’m not just going to pull a figure out of my arms but yes, there is obviously a limit to how many people we can accommodate. And no, it’s not 20 million, that’s obviously bollocks.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:54 pm

Beradogs wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:08 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:00 am Bera- where has your '70% are genuine refugees' figure come from?

Was in the guardian and mentioned on Twitter yesterday. Perhaps I have made a rookie mistake. Hotdogs proving my point by even refusing to acknowledge millions could come never mind giving a figure that he would be comfortable with.

Yes we could be looking at millions in the many years to come. But right now we’re not talking about figures anywhere near that.

I’m not just going to pull a figure out of my arms but yes, there is obviously a limit to how many people we can accommodate. And no, it’s not 20 million, that’s obviously bollocks.

Is it 19,999,999?

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:10 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:17 pm Can we just not house them but offer them a free ferry back to france?

Please change the title of this thread to describe the "migrants" as people. Thank you. Yet another insidiously racist example of the language used on this site.

Yes lots racism on this board. Like comparing some black people to other black people because they are black. The ‘is it just me’ nonsense thread. Latent racism.
We are in 2021 Britain. There are not many black Leyton Orient supporters, I reckon less than 30 years ago. I am a face in the crowd and still feel unwelcome.

Hugo Ball Boy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:36 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:10 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:17 pm Can we just not house them but offer them a free ferry back to france?

Please change the title of this thread to describe the "migrants" as people. Thank you. Yet another insidiously racist example of the language used on this site.

Yes lots racism on this board. Like comparing some black people to other black people because they are black. The ‘is it just me’ nonsense thread. Latent racism.
We are in 2021 Britain. There are not many black Leyton Orient supporters, I reckon less than 30 years ago. I am a face in the crowd and still feel unwelcome.

Is that what those threads were about? Thanks for the gen on it.

As an Os fan of 34 years I'm not sure you are right about there being fewer black Os fans these days than 30 years ago. From what I've seen there never have been that many which is sad really.

Hugo Ball Boy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:36 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:10 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:17 pm Can we just not house them but offer them a free ferry back to france?

Please change the title of this thread to describe the "migrants" as people. Thank you. Yet another insidiously racist example of the language used on this site.

Yes lots racism on this board. Like comparing some black people to other black people because they are black. The ‘is it just me’ nonsense thread. Latent racism.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:08 pm

Hugo Ball Boy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:36 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:10 pm

Please change the title of this thread to describe the "migrants" as people. Thank you. Yet another insidiously racist example of the language used on this site.

Yes lots racism on this board. Like comparing some black people to other black people because they are black. The ‘is it just me’ nonsense thread. Latent racism.
We are in 2021 Britain. There are not many black Leyton Orient supporters, I reckon less than 30 years ago. I am a face in the crowd and still feel unwelcome.

Is that what those threads were about? Thanks for the gen on it.

As an Os fan of 34 years I'm not sure you are right about there being fewer black Os fans these days than 30 years ago. From what I've seen there never have been that many which is sad really.

Is there any wonder? I was bought up in Leyton, went School at Ruckholt, since demolished. I have been going for years but never really felt welcome apart from when with my white school mates. I used to go with other black mates whose mums all nurses at Whipps. Made me very aware of the situation. Things I’ve heard chanted or in casual conversation makes my skin crawl still. I know most over the club are not racist but some need to listen to themselves . That post really said it all for me . Unnecessary but highlighted how it is . That Ron Hotdogs nonsense.

It would be usual practice, when two organisations are working together on such a sensitive issue, to run any communications past each other before making anything public. This is out of courtesy to avoid any unpleasant surprises, and just in case there's been any misunderstanding which can be sensitively dealt with.

So for the French to have uninvited Priti Patel from a meeting at the weekend as a reaction to Johnson's open letter means that either the UK Government didn't do this, or the French are being... well, French. Both are just as possible right now.

But this just shows what a hot political issue this is for both governments, and how anyone who is attempting any of these migrant crossings is pretty f*cked either way.

^Scrap that. I've just read the letter. We're to blame.