Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:43 pm

Mikero wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:12 pm Its all a matter of degrees. There has been a degree of effort to prevent criticism of the Isreal govenment by conflating it with anti-semitism. To a degree it has also been used as another stick to beat the Corbyn regime with, by both the press and their own right wing. They were also hounded into excepting a set of definitions that appeared to make criticism of Zionism almost impossible. Now they have a situation where they have to deal with thousands of cases due to the very poor sceening of the new membership intake. So far 15 dealt with is risable.

Mikero

How many is enough? As Seamus Milne pointed out in his leaked email (which was quoted from incorrectly by leaving out key sentences) there has to be a concern when the accusations of anti-semitism start to regularly include significant numbers of jews.

I note that one of the reasons progress has been so slow is because the previous admin (the ones whistleblowing on Panorama) were incompetent and when not being incompetent they obstructed the disciplinary process. They all have political axes to grind with the Left and especially now that their sinecures have been terminated. They have chosen the tried and tested smear tactics of Stalinism as a political weapon because their political ideas are broken and rejected by a democatic process within Labour which they choose to ignore. Shame on them.

There are ant-semites in the Labour Party and they need to be shown the door. But your suggestion that the screening process was not good enough is just plain silly when you consider the scale of the influx of new members Corbyn generated into an otherwise moribund party. To subject new members to some sort of bureaucratic screening process would have blunted their enthusiasm never mind the cost of the additional bureaucrats who would have to be recruited to run it.

Bloody hell Max. Are you being serious?

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:43 pm

Mikero wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:12 pm Its all a matter of degrees. There has been a degree of effort to prevent criticism of the Isreal govenment by conflating it with anti-semitism. To a degree it has also been used as another stick to beat the Corbyn regime with, by both the press and their own right wing. They were also hounded into excepting a set of definitions that appeared to make criticism of Zionism almost impossible. Now they have a situation where they have to deal with thousands of cases due to the very poor sceening of the new membership intake. So far 15 dealt with is risable.

Mikero

How many is enough? As Seamus Milne pointed out in his leaked email (which was quoted from incorrectly by leaving out key sentences) there has to be a concern when the accusations of anti-semitism start to regularly include significant numbers of jews.

I note that one of the reasons progress has been so slow is because the previous admin (the ones whistleblowing on Panorama) were incompetent and when not being incompetent they obstructed the disciplinary process. They all have political axes to grind with the Left and especially now that their sinecures have been terminated. They have chosen the tried and tested smear tactics of Stalinism as a political weapon because their political ideas are broken and rejected by a democatic process within Labour which they choose to ignore. Shame on them.

There are ant-semites in the Labour Party and they need to be shown the door. But your suggestion that the screening process was not good enough is just plain silly when you consider the scale of the influx of new members Corbyn generated into an otherwise moribund party. To subject new members to some sort of bureaucratic screening process would have blunted their enthusiasm never mind the cost of the additional bureaucrats who would have to be recruited to run it.

Max on the money.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:56 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:43 pm

Mikero wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:12 pm Its all a matter of degrees. There has been a degree of effort to prevent criticism of the Isreal govenment by conflating it with anti-semitism. To a degree it has also been used as another stick to beat the Corbyn regime with, by both the press and their own right wing. They were also hounded into excepting a set of definitions that appeared to make criticism of Zionism almost impossible. Now they have a situation where they have to deal with thousands of cases due to the very poor sceening of the new membership intake. So far 15 dealt with is risable.

Mikero

How many is enough? As Seamus Milne pointed out in his leaked email (which was quoted from incorrectly by leaving out key sentences) there has to be a concern when the accusations of anti-semitism start to regularly include significant numbers of jews.

I note that one of the reasons progress has been so slow is because the previous admin (the ones whistleblowing on Panorama) were incompetent and when not being incompetent they obstructed the disciplinary process. They all have political axes to grind with the Left and especially now that their sinecures have been terminated. They have chosen the tried and tested smear tactics of Stalinism as a political weapon because their political ideas are broken and rejected by a democatic process within Labour which they choose to ignore. Shame on them.

There are ant-semites in the Labour Party and they need to be shown the door. But your suggestion that the screening process was not good enough is just plain silly when you consider the scale of the influx of new members Corbyn generated into an otherwise moribund party. To subject new members to some sort of bureaucratic screening process would have blunted their enthusiasm never mind the cost of the additional bureaucrats who would have to be recruited to run it.

Max on the money.

Max is on something

PS. Best not to do anything to blunt the enthusiasm of any Anti-Semitic new members. Obviously the cost involved is not worth it. And we wonder why the party is in such a state. As for the incompetence stuff, really? We know because?

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:02 pm

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:56 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:43 pm

How many is enough? As Seamus Milne pointed out in his leaked email (which was quoted from incorrectly by leaving out key sentences) there has to be a concern when the accusations of anti-semitism start to regularly include significant numbers of jews.

I note that one of the reasons progress has been so slow is because the previous admin (the ones whistleblowing on Panorama) were incompetent and when not being incompetent they obstructed the disciplinary process. They all have political axes to grind with the Left and especially now that their sinecures have been terminated. They have chosen the tried and tested smear tactics of Stalinism as a political weapon because their political ideas are broken and rejected by a democatic process within Labour which they choose to ignore. Shame on them.

There are ant-semites in the Labour Party and they need to be shown the door. But your suggestion that the screening process was not good enough is just plain silly when you consider the scale of the influx of new members Corbyn generated into an otherwise moribund party. To subject new members to some sort of bureaucratic screening process would have blunted their enthusiasm never mind the cost of the additional bureaucrats who would have to be recruited to run it.

Max on the money.

Max is on something

PS. Best not to do anything to blunt the enthusiasm of any Anti-Semitic new members. Obviously the cost involved is not worth it. And we wonder why the party is in such a state. As for the incompetence stuff, really? We know because?

Don't be deliberately obtuse. That is not what I'm saying. Here is a direct quote from my post "There are ant-semites in the Labour Party and they need to be shown the door.".

We know about the incompetence stuff because the media have been telling us about it for getting on for 3 years now. Do you not read the Daily Mail, Times, Telegraph, Sun, Express, Independent, Star or Guardian.

I note that you haven't even begun to address my central point about anti-semitism being used in a left v right political battle. Do you think it might be valid in any way?

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:23 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:02 pm

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:56 pm

Max on the money.

Max is on something

PS. Best not to do anything to blunt the enthusiasm of any Anti-Semitic new members. Obviously the cost involved is not worth it. And we wonder why the party is in such a state. As for the incompetence stuff, really? We know because?

Don't be deliberately obtuse. That is not what I'm saying. Here is a direct quote from my post "There are ant-semites in the Labour Party and they need to be shown the door.".

We know about the incompetence stuff because the media have been telling us about it for getting on for 3 years now. Do you not read the Daily Mail, Times, Telegraph, Sun, Express, Independent, Star or Guardian.

I note that you haven't even begun to address my central point about anti-semitism being used in a left v right political battle. Do you think it might be valid in any way?

Obtuse? I would humbly suggest you are refusing to accept the serious issues within Labour. But want to believe it’s all a conspiracy against Corbyn. Of course he will have his plotting enemies, all politicians do. Goes with the job. Big deal.

I love the incompetence bit. People set up to deal with complaints all of a sudden become swamped beyond their ability to cope. They then become incompetent. Just love you quoting the Daily Mail by the way. Clearly you believe they do publish the truth as you see it sometimes.

Do I believe everything on the Panorama programme. Of course not, done for impact and of course very selective. Do I believe anti-semitism is rife within Labour, absolutely. Do I believe Corbyn is a racist, probably not. Do I believe he is doing all he can to root it out, absolutely not, Do I believe the top table meddle in investigations, of course they do. Do I believe zero tolerance is the policy, no way. Too much talk and not enough action from the top. The problem all along.

There are clear issues, they are not being dealt with. I don’t believe it was possible to vet new members, not due to cost as stated but simple logistics. The party cannot be responsible for any scumbags who choose to join. What it can do is have robust, well financed compliance people in place in sufficient numbers to deal with the issues and without interference from Corbyns key staff. They need to be supported, not bullied, when rooting out issues and once proven the offenders shown the door ASAP, no matter who they are.

"Do I believe anti-semitism is rife within Labour, absolutely"

Without wanting to engage too much with your usual contrary guff Maffy, can you show me anything to support the above? And I mean something to show that anti-Semitism is actually rife within the LP cos that's a pretty big statement to make.

Anti-Semitism has taken place undoubtedly - and those responsible should be removed without question. But please, show me where it's rife amongst the membership.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:16 pm Do I believe anti-semitism is rife within Labour, absolutely.

rife

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:16 pm Do I believe Corbyn is a racist, probably not.

probably not

Max, this has been going on since the day Jezza got the gig. It was always going to be this way, sadly. Some bloke called Mullin even wrote about it back in the early 80s.

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:32 pm "Do I believe anti-semitism is rife within Labour, absolutely"

Without wanting to engage too much with your usual contrary guff Maffy, can you show me anything to support the above? And I mean something to show that anti-Semitism is actually rife within the LP cos that's a pretty big statement to make.

Anti-Semitism has taken place undoubtedly - and those responsible should be removed without question. But please, show me where it's rife amongst the membership.

Read the resignation letter of Lord Triesman.

But of course he is just another person who don’t like Corbyn, another conspiracy.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:39 pm

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:32 pm "Do I believe anti-semitism is rife within Labour, absolutely"

Without wanting to engage too much with your usual contrary guff Maffy, can you show me anything to support the above? And I mean something to show that anti-Semitism is actually rife within the LP cos that's a pretty big statement to make.

Anti-Semitism has taken place undoubtedly - and those responsible should be removed without question. But please, show me where it's rife amongst the membership.

Read the resignation letter of Lord Triesman.

But of course he is just another person who don’t like Corbyn, another conspiracy.

Where did I mention Corbyn? For the record, I believe JC could've handled aspects of this much better than he has.

So your evidence is the resignation letter? Is that it? That is enough for you, a supposed business expert and life experienced fellow to make a judgement on a political party and it's 400,000 + members?

Just to help you once more, it's the word rife that you need to justify.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:34 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:16 pm Do I believe anti-semitism is rife within Labour, absolutely.

rife

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:16 pm Do I believe Corbyn is a racist, probably not.

probably not

Max, this has been going on since the day Jezza got the gig. It was always going to be this way, sadly. Some bloke called Mullin even wrote about it back in the early 80s.

Yeah. Met Mullin back in the 80s, might have been early 90s in parliament. 'arry organised it for our CLP. That was before he started sucking up to the Blairites tho.

Now that is a cool story. Gutted Thor isn't hear to look and learn.

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:49 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:39 pm

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:32 pm "Do I believe anti-semitism is rife within Labour, absolutely"

Without wanting to engage too much with your usual contrary guff Maffy, can you show me anything to support the above? And I mean something to show that anti-Semitism is actually rife within the LP cos that's a pretty big statement to make.

Anti-Semitism has taken place undoubtedly - and those responsible should be removed without question. But please, show me where it's rife amongst the membership.

Read the resignation letter of Lord Triesman.

But of course he is just another person who don’t like Corbyn, another conspiracy.

Where did I mention Corbyn? For the record, I believe JC could've handled aspects of this much better than he has.

So your evidence is the resignation letter? Is that it? That is enough for you, a supposed business expert and life experienced fellow to make a judgement on a political party and it's 400,000 + members?

Just to help you once more, it's the word rife that you need to justify.

Of course one letter is not “it” but the latest in a long line of incidents that we are all aware of, including you I have no doubt.

Interestingly since Jennie Formby took over responsility about a year ago she has increased the size of the team looking into complaints and the rate of complaints being dealt with has increased four-fold. Totally support this action but it clearly is not enough to satisfy everybody as this letter suggests. But to me her actions suggests a decent number of complaints being processed. Just an opinion but reported incidents are likely to be far less than actual incidents as in many things but I have no evidence to prove this. But I bet I’m right.

Call it rife, call it widespread, call it common. Use whatever adjective you like the situation remains the same. What is happening in the party is not good and actions taken not considered enough.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:59 pm Now that is a cool story. Gutted Thor isn't hear to look and learn.

Oh but wait. There's more. I read his conspiratorial book AND watched the film based on it. 5 on 10. Mediocre at best.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:18 pm

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:49 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:39 pm

Read the resignation letter of Lord Triesman.

But of course he is just another person who don’t like Corbyn, another conspiracy.

Where did I mention Corbyn? For the record, I believe JC could've handled aspects of this much better than he has.

So your evidence is the resignation letter? Is that it? That is enough for you, a supposed business expert and life experienced fellow to make a judgement on a political party and it's 400,000 + members?

Just to help you once more, it's the word rife that you need to justify.

Of course one letter is not “it” but the latest in a long line of incidents that we are all aware of, including you I have no doubt.

Interestingly since Jennie Formby took over responsility about a year ago she has increased the size of the team looking into complaints and the rate of complaints being dealt with has increased four-fold. Totally support this action but it clearly is not enough to satisfy everybody as this letter suggests. But to me her actions suggests a decent number of complaints being processed. Just an opinion but reported incidents are likely to be far less than actual incidents as in many things but I have no evidence to prove this. But I bet I’m right.

So you are now saying there may not be such a big issue as some are making out because you're saying reported incidents will be more than actual incidents. But you've done no research.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:26 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:18 pm

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:49 pm

Where did I mention Corbyn? For the record, I believe JC could've handled aspects of this much better than he has.

So your evidence is the resignation letter? Is that it? That is enough for you, a supposed business expert and life experienced fellow to make a judgement on a political party and it's 400,000 + members?

Just to help you once more, it's the word rife that you need to justify.

Of course one letter is not “it” but the latest in a long line of incidents that we are all aware of, including you I have no doubt.

Interestingly since Jennie Formby took over responsility about a year ago she has increased the size of the team looking into complaints and the rate of complaints being dealt with has increased four-fold. Totally support this action but it clearly is not enough to satisfy everybody as this letter suggests. But to me her actions suggests a decent number of complaints being processed. Just an opinion but reported incidents are likely to be far less than actual incidents as in many things but I have no evidence to prove this. But I bet I’m right.

So you are now saying there may not be such a big issue as some are making out because you're saying reported incidents will be more than actual incidents. But you've done no research.

Your straw clutching is getting embarrassing Max. Silly post tbh.

I will restate what I would like. That is for Labour to get a new leader who can restore the party to what it was and become a force for positive change. I dislike with a passion what the party has become, a party that I have voted for much of my working life. I struggle with the concept that anybody would look at the party as it is now and say it’s good.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:18 pm

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:49 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:39 pm

Read the resignation letter of Lord Triesman.

But of course he is just another person who don’t like Corbyn, another conspiracy.

Where did I mention Corbyn? For the record, I believe JC could've handled aspects of this much better than he has.

So your evidence is the resignation letter? Is that it? That is enough for you, a supposed business expert and life experienced fellow to make a judgement on a political party and it's 400,000 + members?

Just to help you once more, it's the word rife that you need to justify.

Of course one letter is not “it” but the latest in a long line of incidents that we are all aware of, including you I have no doubt.

Interestingly since Jennie Formby took over responsility about a year ago she has increased the size of the team looking into complaints and the rate of complaints being dealt with has increased four-fold. Totally support this action but it clearly is not enough to satisfy everybody as this letter suggests. But to me her actions suggests a decent number of complaints being processed. Just an opinion but reported incidents are likely to be far less than actual incidents as in many things but I have no evidence to prove this. But I bet I’m right.

Call it rife, call it widespread, call it common. Use whatever adjective you like the situation remains the same. What is happening in the party is not good and actions taken not considered enough.

Nope. Still can't see where you've provided evidence to support your assertion that anti-Semitism is "rife", "widespread" or even "common" in the labour party.

Once again, I'll try and help you by asking another question. Out of a membership of say 500,000 (the latest figure I can find as evidence) how many of those would need to have committed any form of anti-Semitism for the problem to be correctly termed as "rife" which is what you're claiming?

Just to further clarify, the number of complaints is clearly more than any party would find acceptable but that is not the question I'm asking you.

Always find it interesting that Nationalism is generally considered a bad thing for anyone not on the far right. Except when it comes to Israel...if you think that’s bad you’re an anti-Semite.

Blimey, this is getting interesting.

At least if Formby and the others did their job, this debate about a minority of Labour party members would be redundant.

BTW Prez, where are your posts on the Tory Watch page about the racist islamophobes in that party? Is Islamophobia ‘rife’ amongst Conservative members?

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:31 pm Blimey, this is getting interesting.

At least if Formby and the others did their job, this debate about a minority of Labour party members would be redundant.

BTW Prez, where are your posts on the Tory Watch page about the racist islamophobes in that party? Is Islamophobia ‘rife’ amongst Conservative members?

Yes and their soon to be leader is one of the worst.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:42 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:31 pm Blimey, this is getting interesting.

At least if Formby and the others did their job, this debate about a minority of Labour party members would be redundant.

BTW Prez, where are your posts on the Tory Watch page about the racist islamophobes in that party? Is Islamophobia ‘rife’ amongst Conservative members?

Yes and their soon to be leader is one of the worst.

Leader? That clown is no more a leader than the incarcerated Yakult-Lemon.

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:49 pm

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:18 pm

admin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:49 pm

Where did I mention Corbyn? For the record, I believe JC could've handled aspects of this much better than he has.

So your evidence is the resignation letter? Is that it? That is enough for you, a supposed business expert and life experienced fellow to make a judgement on a political party and it's 400,000 + members?

Just to help you once more, it's the word rife that you need to justify.

Of course one letter is not “it” but the latest in a long line of incidents that we are all aware of, including you I have no doubt.

Interestingly since Jennie Formby took over responsility about a year ago she has increased the size of the team looking into complaints and the rate of complaints being dealt with has increased four-fold. Totally support this action but it clearly is not enough to satisfy everybody as this letter suggests. But to me her actions suggests a decent number of complaints being processed. Just an opinion but reported incidents are likely to be far less than actual incidents as in many things but I have no evidence to prove this. But I bet I’m right.

Call it rife, call it widespread, call it common. Use whatever adjective you like the situation remains the same. What is happening in the party is not good and actions taken not considered enough.

Nope. Still can't see where you've provided evidence to support your assertion that anti-Semitism is "rife", "widespread" or even "common" in the labour party.

Once again, I'll try and help you by asking another question. Out of a membership of say 500,000 (the latest figure I can find as evidence) how many of those would need to have committed any form of anti-Semitism for the problem to be correctly termed as "rife" which is what you're claiming?

Just to further clarify, the number of complaints is clearly more than any party would find acceptable but that is not the question I'm asking you.

Well let’s just say my definition of commonplace is different to yours in the context of considering the issues facing the party. If you think not commonplace, fine, I do. If you don’t like my wording, tough, it’s my interpretation of the situation, you are welcome to yours. We will just agree to differ. You don’t set the rules on the use of grammar and interpretation. Get over it.

So no evidence at all then? Just a couple of lines of pure bollocks about interpretation of your wording.

You’ve asserted that anti Semitism is rife in the Labour Party but offered nothing in the way of evidence. Anti semitic behaviour has clearly taken place but theirs no evidence that it’s “rife” and you’ve nothing to offer except tabloid style throwaway phrases. Triesmans resignation contains an opinion yet you’re presenting that as evidence.

Perhaps you should think twice before making assertions that insult the vast majority of volunteers, staff and members of a political party who deserve better than being tarred with your idiotic brush.

For someone who tries to portray himself as an out of the box thinker, your contributions here mainly portray you as someone who’s just out of their box.

Absolute mauling

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:06 pm Absolute mauling

And well deserved. Nonsense like Maffys deserves to be pulled apart.

Is this a KO, or has he gotten up from the canvas?