Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:59 pm Just the utter audacity of these utter fannies in charge to introduce eat out to help out, to boost the economy and then to blame some of the same people for going out and spreading corona. Will they own anything, ever?

I think we know the answer to that question.

Having eaten out a few times recently, at different venues, I was surprised that staff in some weren't wearing masks. If you think of the staff as the common denominator, coming into fairly close contact with many different customers (any of whom could have covid) it would seem logical to me that staff most definitely should be masked up to prevent them passing on anything they may have picked up.

Government guidelines though allow each outlet to "follow it's own guidelines on masks" - so some do, some don't. Another own goal I believe and an opportunity missed to have a uniform safer approach by ensuring all restaurant staff wore masks.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:59 pm Just the utter audacity of these utter fannies in charge to introduce eat out to help out, to boost the economy and then to blame some of the same people for going out and spreading corona. Will they own anything, ever?

I hate to break it to you, the Eat Out scheme wasn't compulsory. No one was forced to Eat Out.

Its not the Government’s fault some people allegedly didn't behave properly.

The people to blame are those who failed to behave properly. People need to take responsibility for their actions and stop trying to blame others for their failings

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:27 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:59 pm Just the utter audacity of these utter fannies in charge to introduce eat out to help out, to boost the economy and then to blame some of the same people for going out and spreading corona. Will they own anything, ever?

I hate to break it to you, the Eat Out scheme wasn't compulsory. No one was forced to Eat Out.

Its not the Government’s fault some people allegedly didn't behave properly.

The people to blame are those who failed to behave properly. People need to take responsibility for their actions and stop trying to blame others for their failings

You're missing the point.

No one forced anyone to do anything, but if you actively entice people to do something that involves sitting inside, interacting with other people and eating for, on average, about an hour and a half, then people will take you up on it and people will get/spread the disease.

Unless you are saying that if the government said that they would give everyone a tenner towards the ticket price of an Orient game, and then people took them up on it but all got corona from going to the game that the government would have absolutely no part to play in the spread of the virus? None? Zero?

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:30 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:27 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:59 pm Just the utter audacity of these utter fannies in charge to introduce eat out to help out, to boost the economy and then to blame some of the same people for going out and spreading corona. Will they own anything, ever?

I hate to break it to you, the Eat Out scheme wasn't compulsory. No one was forced to Eat Out.

Its not the Government’s fault some people allegedly didn't behave properly.

The people to blame are those who failed to behave properly. People need to take responsibility for their actions and stop trying to blame others for their failings

You're missing the point.

No one forced anyone to do anything, but if you actively entice people to do something that involves sitting inside, interacting with other people and eating for, on average, about an hour and a half, then people will take you up on it and people will get/spread the disease.

Unless you are saying that if the government said that they would give everyone a tenner towards the ticket price of an Orient game, and then people took them up on it but all got corona from going to the game that the government would have absolutely no part to play in the spread of the virus? None? Zero?

The actions of the government did not spread the virus.

If for example no one had taken up the government scheme and everyone stayed away, then there would be increase. Thus it was not the scheme that caused the increase.

It was the actions of individuals. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.



You however try to turn everything into an attack on the government. If they introduce restrictions you shout about your tights etc. If the government instead give guidance you complain they are not being tough enough.


Its the actions of individuals that spread the virus. People need to take responsibility for their actions and choices

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:44 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:30 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:27 pm

I hate to break it to you, the Eat Out scheme wasn't compulsory. No one was forced to Eat Out.

Its not the Government’s fault some people allegedly didn't behave properly.

The people to blame are those who failed to behave properly. People need to take responsibility for their actions and stop trying to blame others for their failings

You're missing the point.

No one forced anyone to do anything, but if you actively entice people to do something that involves sitting inside, interacting with other people and eating for, on average, about an hour and a half, then people will take you up on it and people will get/spread the disease.

Unless you are saying that if the government said that they would give everyone a tenner towards the ticket price of an Orient game, and then people took them up on it but all got corona from going to the game that the government would have absolutely no part to play in the spread of the virus? None? Zero?

The actions of the government did not spread the virus.

If for example no one had taken up the government scheme and everyone stayed away, then there would be increase. Thus it was not the scheme that caused the increase.

It was the actions of individuals. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.



You however try to turn everything into an attack on the government. If they introduce restrictions you shout about your tights etc. If the government instead give guidance you complain they are not being tough enough.


Its the actions of individuals that spread the virus. People need to take responsibility for their actions and choices

Leave my tights out of this

I'm largely with you - people do need to take responsibility.

but that doesn't absolve an elected government who's job is LITERALLY to lead this country. They have been elected to do so. Unfortunately people cant be trusted otherwise we wouldn't need a government in the first place. You wouldn't have a job either.

I find it strange that you cant see how the government has ANY part to play in ANY of this, despite being the law setters. Would be interesting to see if you still had that view if it wasn't a tory government? I dont know you political sway btw, just wondering.

Wumble I don't think it's the eat out to help punters who are responsible for the uptick, we have been out a few times and precautions have been been good and we have had contact details taken and not had any contact from test and trace to indicate issues at eateries we were at.

However look at the amount of illegal events and raves going on, look at the gatherings outside nightspots where up to 200 people at a time have gathered many without mask and no social distancing also look at the figures released today that show its 19-23 year olds with majority on new infections those people have to take responsibility for their actions.

When we were out eating and taking advantage of EOTHO The age group we saw were not 19-23 year olds but more so an older generation and families . If younger people don't respect social distancing and wearing masks it's no surprise cases are ticking upwards.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:51 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:44 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:30 pm
You're missing the point.

No one forced anyone to do anything, but if you actively entice people to do something that involves sitting inside, interacting with other people and eating for, on average, about an hour and a half, then people will take you up on it and people will get/spread the disease.

Unless you are saying that if the government said that they would give everyone a tenner towards the ticket price of an Orient game, and then people took them up on it but all got corona from going to the game that the government would have absolutely no part to play in the spread of the virus? None? Zero?

The actions of the government did not spread the virus.

If for example no one had taken up the government scheme and everyone stayed away, then there would be increase. Thus it was not the scheme that caused the increase.

It was the actions of individuals. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.



You however try to turn everything into an attack on the government. If they introduce restrictions you shout about your tights etc. If the government instead give guidance you complain they are not being tough enough.


Its the actions of individuals that spread the virus. People need to take responsibility for their actions and choices

Leave my tights out of this

I'm largely with you - people do need to take responsibility.

but that doesn't absolve an elected government who's job is LITERALLY to lead this country. They have been elected to do so. Unfortunately people cant be trusted otherwise we wouldn't need a government in the first place. You wouldn't have a job either.

I find it strange that you cant see how the government has ANY part to play in ANY of this, despite being the law setters. Would be interesting to see if you still had that view if it wasn't a tory government? I dont know you political sway btw, just wondering.

Look i will leave your tights out of it only when you stop wanting to know about my swinging/swaying

How can people really say we can act responsibly
When copious amounts of

Are involved ?

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:59 pm Just the utter audacity of these utter fannies in charge to introduce eat out to help out, to boost the economy and then to blame some of the same people for going out and spreading corona. Will they own anything, ever?

Who does?

I didn't take advantage of this scheme as it seemed obvious to me that it would encourage people to fill restaurants.

Did it not occur to these utter fannies that they were putting themselves at risk to get 50% off some food?

Did it not occur to these utter fannies, including professional footballers luckily enough to have access to unlimited tests, to forego a foreign holiday this summer?

I could go on but people have to think for themselves. Probably some of the people moaning about returning to work were in the Q last week to get their nose in the trough.

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:57 pm Wumble I don't think it's the eat out to help punters who are responsible for the uptick, we have been out a few times and precautions have been been good and we have had contact details taken and not had any contact from test and trace to indicate issues at eateries we were at.

Do you really expect any contact from the test and trace scheme? Takes optimistic to a new level.

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:16 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:59 pm Just the utter audacity of these utter fannies in charge to introduce eat out to help out, to boost the economy and then to blame some of the same people for going out and spreading corona. Will they own anything, ever?

Who does?

I didn't take advantage of this scheme as it seemed obvious to me that it would encourage people to fill restaurants.

Did it not occur to these utter fannies that they were putting themselves at risk to get 50% off some food?

Did it not occur to these utter fannies, including professional footballers luckily enough to have access to unlimited tests, to forego a foreign holiday this summer?

I could go on but people have to think for themselves. Probably some of the people moaning about returning to work were in the Q last week to get their nose in the trough.

I agree with you - entirely. 100% spot on.

But that doesn't negate the fact that all the evidence points at the fact that you cant trust utter fannies that make up society. And knowing that, you implement clear rules that they have to follow or they get punished. Not only have the government failed in that but they did the opposite and enticed people out to restaurants, pubs, etc...and are still trying to get people back into the city.

People are acting like society is full of competent people who follow rules. If that was the case then we wouldn't need governments or laws.

Perfect world, everyone is responsible but you're being completely unrealistic to expect that to actually happen.

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:16 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:59 pm Just the utter audacity of these utter fannies in charge to introduce eat out to help out, to boost the economy and then to blame some of the same people for going out and spreading corona. Will they own anything, ever?

Who does?

I didn't take advantage of this scheme as it seemed obvious to me that it would encourage people to fill restaurants.

Did it not occur to these utter fannies that they were putting themselves at risk to get 50% off some food?

Did it not occur to these utter fannies, including professional footballers luckily enough to have access to unlimited tests, to forego a foreign holiday this summer?

I could go on but people have to think for themselves. Probably some of the people moaning about returning to work were in the Q last week to get their nose in the trough.

Rubbish - The Eateries I went to were perfectly safe followed the rules with track and trace, social distancing and one way systems. None of them have subsequently had Covid issues. These were places we have used for years and wanted to supprt in difficult times, we have eaten there outside of EOTHO without any issues. None of them were teaming with 19-23 year old age group are the real "fannies" and responsible for the uptick in cases because they flaunt social distancing, refuse to wear masks, (group of them ejected from Ikea Lakeside last week for refusing to wear masks) Look at the data published today 19-23 year olds by far the largest group of new infections.

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:28 pm

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:16 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:59 pm Just the utter audacity of these utter fannies in charge to introduce eat out to help out, to boost the economy and then to blame some of the same people for going out and spreading corona. Will they own anything, ever?

Who does?

I didn't take advantage of this scheme as it seemed obvious to me that it would encourage people to fill restaurants.

Did it not occur to these utter fannies that they were putting themselves at risk to get 50% off some food?

Did it not occur to these utter fannies, including professional footballers luckily enough to have access to unlimited tests, to forego a foreign holiday this summer?

I could go on but people have to think for themselves. Probably some of the people moaning about returning to work were in the Q last week to get their nose in the trough.

Rubbish - The Eateries I went to were perfectly safe followed the rules with track and trace, social distancing and one way systems. None of them have subsequently had Covid issues. These were places we have used for years and wanted to supprt in difficult times, we have eaten there outside of EOTHO without any issues. None of them were teaming with 19-23 year old age group are the real "fannies" and responsible for the uptick in cases because they flaunt social distancing, refuse to wear masks, (group of them ejected from Ikea Lakeside last week for refusing to wear masks) Look at the data published today 19-23 year olds by far the largest group of new infections.

You're preaching to the converted when it comes to the 'me me me' generation.

I just think that you are being optimistic that because you have not heard through track and trace that the eateries have had no Covid issues.
I hope though for your sake that they havent.

As my area has has a low infection rate 6 cases per 100,000, I reckon I'm OK. Thanks.

For what it's worth a friend of mine was contacted by T&T about three weeks ago as he had been in contact with someone who tested positive, he got out of self isolation only for his wife to get a call two days later to say that one of her work colleagues had been infected. It does work.

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:28 pm

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:16 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:59 pm Just the utter audacity of these utter fannies in charge to introduce eat out to help out, to boost the economy and then to blame some of the same people for going out and spreading corona. Will they own anything, ever?

Who does?

I didn't take advantage of this scheme as it seemed obvious to me that it would encourage people to fill restaurants.

Did it not occur to these utter fannies that they were putting themselves at risk to get 50% off some food?

Did it not occur to these utter fannies, including professional footballers luckily enough to have access to unlimited tests, to forego a foreign holiday this summer?

I could go on but people have to think for themselves. Probably some of the people moaning about returning to work were in the Q last week to get their nose in the trough.

Rubbish - The Eateries I went to were perfectly safe followed the rules with track and trace, social distancing and one way systems. None of them have subsequently had Covid issues. These were places we have used for years and wanted to supprt in difficult times, we have eaten there outside of EOTHO without any issues. None of them were teaming with 19-23 year old age group are the real "fannies" and responsible for the uptick in cases because they flaunt social distancing, refuse to wear masks, (group of them ejected from Ikea Lakeside last week for refusing to wear masks) Look at the data published today 19-23 year olds by far the largest group of new infections.

If we're going to have a go at age groups, might as well blame olds for voting in a government that has handled this worse than pretty much any other country in Europe.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:46 pm

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:28 pm

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:16 pm

Who does?

I didn't take advantage of this scheme as it seemed obvious to me that it would encourage people to fill restaurants.

Did it not occur to these utter fannies that they were putting themselves at risk to get 50% off some food?

Did it not occur to these utter fannies, including professional footballers luckily enough to have access to unlimited tests, to forego a foreign holiday this summer?

I could go on but people have to think for themselves. Probably some of the people moaning about returning to work were in the Q last week to get their nose in the trough.

Rubbish - The Eateries I went to were perfectly safe followed the rules with track and trace, social distancing and one way systems. None of them have subsequently had Covid issues. These were places we have used for years and wanted to supprt in difficult times, we have eaten there outside of EOTHO without any issues. None of them were teaming with 19-23 year old age group are the real "fannies" and responsible for the uptick in cases because they flaunt social distancing, refuse to wear masks, (group of them ejected from Ikea Lakeside last week for refusing to wear masks) Look at the data published today 19-23 year olds by far the largest group of new infections.

If we're going to have a go at age groups, might as well blame olds for voting in a government that has handled this worse than pretty much any other country in Europe.

Don't go there mate. It was the young not turning out that handed the election on a plate to the Tories. Statistically the olds are always right wing (not all I hasten to add). Their support for the Blues was to be expected. The young voted Red mainly - at least the ones who could be arsed to vote at all.

Point is I think blaming age groups gets you nowhere. Younger people are at minimal risk from the virus and have been to basically suspend their lives for the past 6 months. They are the ones most likely to have lost their jobs, income, housing, quality of life etc. Raves are a good bogeyman, but other factors like poverty and overcrowded housing overlap with age a lot and are likely to be just as culpable for the predominance of younger people in transmission. I've seen plenty of older people not abiding by face mask wearing or social distancing.

As an aside, people losing discipline with quarantine, social distancing, whatever you want to call it, is a story as old as our attempts at battle pandemics. This isn't some unique failing of this generation of people, basically the same behavioural stuff plays out every time a pandemic comes along.

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:51 pm

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:46 pm

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:28 pm

Rubbish - The Eateries I went to were perfectly safe followed the rules with track and trace, social distancing and one way systems. None of them have subsequently had Covid issues. These were places we have used for years and wanted to supprt in difficult times, we have eaten there outside of EOTHO without any issues. None of them were teaming with 19-23 year old age group are the real "fannies" and responsible for the uptick in cases because they flaunt social distancing, refuse to wear masks, (group of them ejected from Ikea Lakeside last week for refusing to wear masks) Look at the data published today 19-23 year olds by far the largest group of new infections.

If we're going to have a go at age groups, might as well blame olds for voting in a government that has handled this worse than pretty much any other country in Europe.

Don't go there mate. It was the young not turning out that handed the election on a plate to the Tories. Statistically the olds are always right wing (not all I hasten to add). Their support for the Blues was to be expected. The young voted Red mainly - at least the ones who could be arsed to vote at all.

Also this is a lazy cliche. I believe youth turnout at the last election was amongst the highest in quarter of a century.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:03 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:51 pm

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:46 pm

If we're going to have a go at age groups, might as well blame olds for voting in a government that has handled this worse than pretty much any other country in Europe.

Don't go there mate. It was the young not turning out that handed the election on a plate to the Tories. Statistically the olds are always right wing (not all I hasten to add). Their support for the Blues was to be expected. The young voted Red mainly - at least the ones who could be arsed to vote at all.

Also this is a lazy cliche. I believe youth turnout at the last election was amongst the highest in quarter of a century.

Sorry, really not the case. The 18-24 group was the lowest turnout by far followed, as expected, by the 25-34 age groups. I honestly don't know if the turnout was higher than previous elections but it was still pathetically low compared to older age groups. My point still stands.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:59 pm Point is I think blaming age groups gets you nowhere. Younger people are at minimal risk from the virus and have been to basically suspend their lives for the past 6 months. They are the ones most likely to have lost their jobs, income, housing, quality of life etc. Raves are a good bogeyman, but other factors like poverty and overcrowded housing overlap with age a lot and are likely to be just as culpable for the predominance of younger people in transmission. I've seen plenty of older people not abiding by face mask wearing or social distancing.

Point is it's a fact that 19-23s in fact 19-30's are catching covid and infecting other people some who may be at serious risk from it faster than any other age group. To say I'm at minimal risk so I'm not fussed is just a cop out.

Is it too much to ask to continue to social distance and wear masks like everyone else until we beat this thing, by not following these guidlines they are contributing to another possible lockdown even more job losses. Income reduction, etc, Everyone has suspended their lives for 6 months everyone has suffered in someway but it's nothing compared to family and loved ones who someone who has died from it.

We can't do much about social housing in the short term but we could all follow guidelines and help beat the Virus.

You cannot "beat the virus". That was never a realistic option.

Yeah, I agree with you 100%, but just giving some context. The way that poverty seems to align with case prevalence suggests that overcrowded housing is a big factor in transmission and young people are way likely to live in overcrowded homes. Add in the economic and mental health impact on younger people - who are way likelier to be vulnerable on both fronts - and you have a particularly wretched time. People are f*cked off with this and looking for some kind of respite, I'm guessing most young people are weighing up their own risk and not what that risk means for others.

We'll see if today's announcement has an impact. We're at a crossroads for sure. But I wouldn't buy into any narrative that shifts the blame from government to population and would hope no-one falls for the obvious deflecting going on (see also blaming asymptomatic people for getting tests).

Got to be honest, I thought they’d try and pin it on foreigns rather than the young. Maybe that will follow?

What, like this?

https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-cond ... s-12039949