Independent Leyton Orient Forum

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:22 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:16 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:02 am Not seen distancing enforced anywhere.

How about people taking responsibility for their actions. If they did there would be no need for enforcement.

Blaming a lack of enforcement is to ignore who are the people causing the problems

Agree to some extent, but people will always push boundaries. They'll do this even more so when they know there will be no consequences. This government has never enforced any of the restrictions, and even flouted them (remember that bloke Cummings?). When the government does nothing to enforce restrictions, flouts them themselves, and issues confusing and ambiguous guidelines then they have to bear the brunt of the blame.

Agreed, but the people primarily to blame are those not obeying rules. There is no need for enforcement if people behave correctly.

Blame the offenders they are the primary problem

Yep it's life with all the fun sucked out of it.

Your allowed to sit on the train with a complete bunch of strangers who couldn't give a toss about your health, to get us into the town centres to spend as the government has turned us into a total service industry. Yet your not allowed to meet up with another family or friends outside socially as they'll be more than 6 of you.

People are going to be going f*ck that for a game of soldiers shortly.

The old bill can't keep up with crime as it is so they'll have trouble finding the resource to do this properly.

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:22 amThis government has never enforced any of the restrictions.

Well, other than the 21,865 fines (as of 3 weeks ago) in England and Wales alone

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:27 am

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:22 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:16 am

How about people taking responsibility for their actions. If they did there would be no need for enforcement.

Blaming a lack of enforcement is to ignore who are the people causing the problems

Agree to some extent, but people will always push boundaries. They'll do this even more so when they know there will be no consequences. This government has never enforced any of the restrictions, and even flouted them (remember that bloke Cummings?). When the government does nothing to enforce restrictions, flouts them themselves, and issues confusing and ambiguous guidelines then they have to bear the brunt of the blame.

Agreed, but the people primarily to blame are those not obeying rules. There is no need for enforcement if people behave correctly.

Blame the offenders they are the primary problem

Been in a few pubs where it's predominately patronised by your older drinker ( I'm one) and not seen any problems. Walked past a few bars in my local area where you have a younger clientele and it seems a lost worse. Also know that it's been reported to the police and they do bugger all about it.about it.

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:26 am

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:56 am If I was guessing at the cause of the increase, which everyone is doing, I would place the blame on those having gone abroad and visited the resorts that are also spiking, and bringing it back to spread here.

Or it could have been a few from here there brought it there & infected lots more

Oh to be so politically correct all the time

Some could have taken it from here, infected people out there, who then brought it back and infected people here.
Either way it would seem that more people have come back with it than went out with it hence the rise in cases here.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:29 am

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:22 amThis government has never enforced any of the restrictions.

Well, other than the 21,865 fines (as of 3 weeks ago) in England and Wales alone

Should the government have a representative in every supermarket for example?

Loads of people are wandering around supermarkets without masks. Why?
Also makes you think that if they can't be bothered to wear a mask do they bother washing their hands.

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:37 am

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:26 am

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:56 am If I was guessing at the cause of the increase, which everyone is doing, I would place the blame on those having gone abroad and visited the resorts that are also spiking, and bringing it back to spread here.

Or it could have been a few from here there brought it there & infected lots more

Oh to be so politically correct all the time

Some could have taken it from here, infected people out there, who then brought it back and infected people here.
Either way it would seem that more people have come back with it than went out with it hence the rise in cases here.

Those Islands were pretty much free of it, like we were before our lockdown was ended .
We started socialising pubs gatherings etc of course its more likely it came from tourists visiting them

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:27 am

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:22 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:16 am

How about people taking responsibility for their actions. If they did there would be no need for enforcement.

Blaming a lack of enforcement is to ignore who are the people causing the problems

Agree to some extent, but people will always push boundaries. They'll do this even more so when they know there will be no consequences. This government has never enforced any of the restrictions, and even flouted them (remember that bloke Cummings?). When the government does nothing to enforce restrictions, flouts them themselves, and issues confusing and ambiguous guidelines then they have to bear the brunt of the blame.

Agreed, but the people primarily to blame are those not obeying rules. There is no need for enforcement if people behave correctly.

Blame the offenders they are the primary problem

Once again, I partially agree. The offenders most definitely bear some blame but when the governments guidelines, and underlying messages, are unclear - "go out and enjoy yourselves in pubs (I'm sure when you're pissed you'll socially distance) - go back to work and public transport is OK (try social distancing on the tube) - no gatherings of more than 30, did I say 30, I meant 6 - wear masks in shops (but not in shops like Pret where you could eat a sandwich if you wish to). I could go on and on about the ambiguous and contradictory "guidelines". The Cummings affair was also a watershed moment. By allowing that to go unpunished just encouraged others to think "the government don't even follow the rules so why should we?".

Granted some people didn't need much encouragement to push the boundaries and flout the rules but the problem mostly stems from terrible government guidelines, management and enforcement. Add the impact of the Cummings affair when the government could, and should, have used this to demonstrate that bending the rules would not be tolerated, and they undoubtedly do bear the brunt of the blame.

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:41 am

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:37 am

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:26 am

Or it could have been a few from here there brought it there & infected lots more

Oh to be so politically correct all the time

Some could have taken it from here, infected people out there, who then brought it back and infected people here.
Either way it would seem that more people have come back with it than went out with it hence the rise in cases here.

Those Islands were pretty much free of it, like we were before our lockdown was ended .
We started socialising pubs gatherings etc of course its more likely it came from tourists visiting them

All of their tourists came from the UK then?

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:29 am

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:22 amThis government has never enforced any of the restrictions.

Well, other than the 21,865 fines (as of 3 weeks ago) in England and Wales alone

Compared to 800,000 fines in France in the first month alone of Lockdown (from March 17th to April 17th). Yeah, we really enforced it.

Just to help you out, England and Wales averaged around 1300 a week whereas France did 200,000 a week.

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:51 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:29 am

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:22 amThis government has never enforced any of the restrictions.

Well, other than the 21,865 fines (as of 3 weeks ago) in England and Wales alone

Compared to 800,000 fines in France in the first month alone of Lockdown (from March 17th to April 17th). Yeah, we really enforced it.

Just to help you out, England and Wales averaged around 1300 a week whereas France did 200,000 a week.

So you accept your statement that they "never enforced any restrictions" was incorrect

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:16 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:02 am Not seen distancing enforced anywhere.

How about people taking responsibility for their actions. If they did there would be no need for enforcement.

Blaming a lack of enforcement is to ignore who are the people causing the problems

Which is why the RULES need enforcing.

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:58 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:16 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:02 am Not seen distancing enforced anywhere.

How about people taking responsibility for their actions. If they did there would be no need for enforcement.

Blaming a lack of enforcement is to ignore who are the people causing the problems

Which is why the RULES need enforcing.

Who by?

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:39 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:29 am

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:22 amThis government has never enforced any of the restrictions.

Well, other than the 21,865 fines (as of 3 weeks ago) in England and Wales alone

Should the government have a representative in every supermarket for example?

Loads of people are wandering around supermarkets without masks. Why?
Also makes you think that if they can't be bothered to wear a mask do they bother washing their hands.

Yes and they could make a pretty penny. Do that for a couple of weeks and people would soon follow the rules.

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:00 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:58 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:16 am

How about people taking responsibility for their actions. If they did there would be no need for enforcement.

Blaming a lack of enforcement is to ignore who are the people causing the problems

Which is why the RULES need enforcing.

Who by?

Since 2010:-

"Annual figures which use March as a snapshot have been published for decades and those show that 2018 saw the lowest number of police officers since 1981. Numbers of police community support officers (PCSOs), who patrol the streets, have fallen by nearly 40% during this period, from 16,688 in 2010 to 10,139 in 2018."

Given that the Tories have overseen a huge reduction in Police then it would be difficult for them alone to enforce Covid rules. Maybe the military, under very strict guidelines, should be used.

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:00 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:58 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:16 am

How about people taking responsibility for their actions. If they did there would be no need for enforcement.

Blaming a lack of enforcement is to ignore who are the people causing the problems

Which is why the RULES need enforcing.

Who by?

Police, council, security guards, I don't care.

Any shop could say no mask no entry/service but they only care about their bottom line.

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:08 am

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:00 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:58 am
Which is why the RULES need enforcing.

Who by?

Police, council, security guards, I don't care.

Any shop could say no mask no entry/service but they only care about their bottom line.

... and they're under no real pressure by the government to ensure compliance.

Shop/transport workers don't want the grief and if all you have to do when challenged is say "I'm exempt" then enforcement becomes impossible

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:11 am Shop/transport workers don't want the grief and if all you have to do when challenged is say "I'm exempt" then enforcement becomes impossible

So, as per other Countries, you make exempt people carry a card to prove this. Nothing impossible about enforcing rules, only needs a will to do so.

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:14 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:11 am Shop/transport workers don't want the grief and if all you have to do when challenged is say "I'm exempt" then enforcement becomes impossible

So, as per other Countries, you make exempt people carry a card to prove this. Nothing impossible about enforcing rules, only needs a will to do so.

How do you force shelf stackers to challenge people not wearing a mask? On pain of job termination surely?

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:00 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:58 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:16 am

How about people taking responsibility for their actions. If they did there would be no need for enforcement.

Blaming a lack of enforcement is to ignore who are the people causing the problems

Which is why the RULES need enforcing.

Who by?

Exactly !
Also it would also need more than one person around in a supermarket to enforce it.
And how do you collect these fines, many challenged might give bogus names and addresses, also some might well turn violent when challenged and some characters could even pull a knife ? Another thing I do not understand is this track and trace system about being unable to contact some of those who are tested as positive ? Does that mean that some people are refusing to cooperate when contacted to be told that they have been tested as positive with the virus ? If that is so, then surely if they have the home address of people who are tested, refusal to cooperate in case of them being found to be tested positive should be liable for a stiff fine.

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:14 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:11 am Shop/transport workers don't want the grief and if all you have to do when challenged is say "I'm exempt" then enforcement becomes impossible

So, as per other Countries, you make exempt people carry a card to prove this. Nothing impossible about enforcing rules, only needs a will to do so.

Agree. We seem to have become far too much of a liberal type of Country to bring in such stiff enforcements.

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:58 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:16 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:02 am Not seen distancing enforced anywhere.

How about people taking responsibility for their actions. If they did there would be no need for enforcement.

Blaming a lack of enforcement is to ignore who are the people causing the problems

Which is why the RULES need enforcing.

Putting the cart before the horse again

Rules do not need enforcement if people obey them
.the problem is people not enforcement

Bizarre opinion. Rules need enforcement if people don't obey them, which they don't.

Really wouldn't be comfortable with a French style enforcement of rules. The relationship between police and population there is f*cked, this is proper 'cure worse than the disease' territory. If you normalise the idea of the police being able to do what they want in terms of dispersing people and controlling individual movement, I think it'd be a hard thing to snap out of.