Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:47 pm**

I hope you included a translation leaflet with your written apology. If not your being both ableist and racist.

Posted: **Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:51 pm**

It's a minefield for sure.

Posted: **Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:59 pm**

CEB wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:40 am Saying that “wanting to lower rates of young people who transition = wanting trans people to not exist” = saying “treatment of eating disorders as if they are medical conditions means you want to exterminate fat people”

Because she clarifies that people who are ‘happily transitioned’ are still ‘a problem’, I think a better (though still imperfect) analogy would be ‘overweight people, regardless of whether they are happy in their bodies, are a problem because of the money and effort associated with providing for them medically. We should therefore petition decision-makers to not allow people to be overweight’

Posted: **Sat Jun 04, 2022 10:05 pm**

Agreed. Where is the petition to sign?

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:35 pm**

oxo wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:59 pm
CEB wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:40 am Saying that “wanting to lower rates of young people who transition = wanting trans people to not exist” = saying “treatment of eating disorders as if they are medical conditions means you want to exterminate fat people”
Because she clarifies that people who are ‘happily transitioned’ are still ‘a problem’, I think a better (though still imperfect) analogy would be ‘overweight people, regardless of whether they are happy in their bodies, are a problem because of the money and effort associated with providing for them medically. We should therefore petition decision-makers to not allow people to be overweight’

With the pertinent issue being the nature of the “problem”, right? And Prior here acts as if the “problem” = “women saying they want trans people to die”, while the context (as far as I can gather based on exactly what it is that women critical of trans ideology actually say) is that the problem is that the fundamental assertion that some male people can and should be effectively classed as female people amounts to an unacceptable redefinition of what it means to be female, with an unacceptable impact on what a “female space” is

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:53 pm**

CEB wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:35 pm With the pertinent issue being the nature of the “problem”, right? And Prior here acts as if the “problem” = “women saying they want trans people to die”, while the context (as far as I can gather based on exactly what it is that women critical of trans ideology actually say) is that the problem is that the fundamental assertion that some male people can and should be effectively classed as female people amounts to an unacceptable redefinition of what it means to be female, with an unacceptable impact on what a “female space” is

Yeah I do agree with you on that part -- the speaker in the video isn't advocating for trans people to be killed.

In that clip the speaker doesn't spell out exactly how people who have transitioned are 'a problem', other than the fact that they need 'special accommodation'.

What I'm getting from her is:

- if somebody transitions, they require special accommodations
- those people are deserving of special accommodations
- making special accommodations is difficult and therefore undesirable
- it would be easier to just reduce the number of people who require special accommodation
- we should therefore not allow people to transition, even if, for some people, it will make them happy

It sounds like the caveat is that, for her, people who have transitioned deserve special accommodation because they have been harmed. I can't really tell whether she genuinely thinks that every person who has transitioned has been harmed -- she states it as a fact, but she also tacitly acknowledges the existence of people who are happily transitioned. I suppose it’s possible that she's genuine and her position is self-contradictory, but given that she's an academic I think it's more likely that she's arguing in bad faith to make her argument appear to be rooted in compassion for trans people.

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:06 pm**

oxo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:53 pm
CEB wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:35 pm With the pertinent issue being the nature of the “problem”, right? And Prior here acts as if the “problem” = “women saying they want trans people to die”, while the context (as far as I can gather based on exactly what it is that women critical of trans ideology actually say) is that the problem is that the fundamental assertion that some male people can and should be effectively classed as female people amounts to an unacceptable redefinition of what it means to be female, with an unacceptable impact on what a “female space” is
Yeah I do agree with you on that part -- the speaker in the video isn't advocating for trans people to be killed.

In that clip the speaker doesn't spell out exactly how people who have transitioned are 'a problem', other than the fact that they need 'special accommodation'.

What I'm getting from her is:

- if somebody transitions, they require special accommodations
- those people are deserving of special accommodations
- making special accommodations is difficult and therefore undesirable
- it would be easier to just reduce the number of people who require special accommodation
- we should therefore not allow people to transition, even if, for some people, it will make them happy

It sounds like the caveat is that, for her, people who have transitioned deserve special accommodation because they have been harmed. I can't really tell whether she genuinely thinks that every person who has transitioned has been harmed -- she states it as a fact, but she also tacitly acknowledges the existence of people who are happily transitioned. I suppose it’s possible that she's genuine and her position is self-contradictory, but given that she's an academic I think it's more likely that she's arguing in bad faith to make her argument appear to be rooted in compassion for trans people.

Two things to add:

1. There is no compassion in an argument that labels trans people as a "problem" needing "special accomodation". There is an underlying assumption that they are mentally defective because the don't fit the definition of "normal".

2. This persecution of a minority group under cover of protecting womens rights is harming all trans people not just the extreme ones that CEB hates. The "othering" of a group and the hate it generates is a well trodden path for fascists.

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:19 pm**

oxo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:53 pm
CEB wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:35 pm With the pertinent issue being the nature of the “problem”, right? And Prior here acts as if the “problem” = “women saying they want trans people to die”, while the context (as far as I can gather based on exactly what it is that women critical of trans ideology actually say) is that the problem is that the fundamental assertion that some male people can and should be effectively classed as female people amounts to an unacceptable redefinition of what it means to be female, with an unacceptable impact on what a “female space” is
Yeah I do agree with you on that part -- the speaker in the video isn't advocating for trans people to be killed.

In that clip the speaker doesn't spell out exactly how people who have transitioned are 'a problem', other than the fact that they need 'special accommodation'.

What I'm getting from her is:

- if somebody transitions, they require special accommodations
- those people are deserving of special accommodations
- making special accommodations is difficult and therefore undesirable
- it would be easier to just reduce the number of people who require special accommodation
- we should therefore not allow people to transition, even if, for some people, it will make them happy

It sounds like the caveat is that, for her, people who have transitioned deserve special accommodation because they have been harmed. I can't really tell whether she genuinely thinks that every person who has transitioned has been harmed -- she states it as a fact, but she also tacitly acknowledges the existence of people who are happily transitioned. I suppose it’s possible that she's genuine and her position is self-contradictory, but given that she's an academic I think it's more likely that she's arguing in bad faith to make her argument appear to be rooted in compassion for trans people.

Yes, I think that’s fair. I think (though I haven’t watched the whole thing) she’s talking about the line where a happily transitioned male to female person is still male, and reserving the right to still see that as a violation of female spaces. In practical terms, I think that’s where it’s perhaps not really a fight worth having, and that it’s the more batshit crazy outcomes of trans activism that are far, far more pressing than a zero tolerance approach. Though I do also totally get that trans activism has worked on a “give an inch, take a mile” that’s turned a courtesy of pretending we don’t see someone as male, to be a demand that we unquestioningly see all males who identify as a woman as literally women.
(Oh, and for clarity - I absolutely agree that full transition should be possible for those for whom it is necessary, and that society needs to work out how to implement it while listening to all the concerns and looking at where rights clash)

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:25 pm**

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:06 pm The "othering" of a group and the hate it generates is a well trodden path for fascists.

Yeah, I agree, and I think that's why that person on twitter is invoking fascism here.

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:26 pm**

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:19 pm (Oh, and for clarity - I absolutely agree that full transition should be possible for those for whom it is necessary, and that society needs to work out how to implement it while listening to all the concerns and looking at where rights clash)

Looks like we do have some common ground. (On this issue I mean, I'm sure we also have plenty of common ground in terms of politics in general, and elsewhere.)

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:29 pm**

Is the 'special accommodation' everyone else having to accept something thats not real and accept things like men in womens facilities?

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:35 pm**

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:29 pm Is the 'special accommodation' everyone else having to accept something thats not real and accept things like men in womens facilities?

She doesn't say what she means by that in the clip.

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:36 pm**

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:29 pm Is the 'special accommodation' everyone else having to accept something thats not real and accept things like men in womens facilities?

This is basically the crux of it. Single sex spaces (whether that be a changing room or a shortlist for a job) cease to be single sex spaces when some male people are allowed in. The accommodations society makes should (IMO) be towards recognising the needs of trans people *as* trans people. And that is absolutely something that can be campaigned for and where progress can and should be made. Part of what’s holding that back though is that the trans rights movement is the only civil rights movement that has involved an oppressor class (male people) demanding access into the oppressed category (female people) while casting objection to it as punching down at vulnerable people.

Oxo, what’s your position? On what basis do you think female people should be compelled to have the concept of female redefined to include male people who demand to be included in that category?

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:51 pm**

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:36 pm Oxo, what’s your position? On what basis do you think female people should be compelled to have the concept of female redefined to include male people who demand to be included in that category?

The honest truth is that I probably don't have a coherent position as such (by which I mean I don't have any policy points or whatever). I've read several accounts of trans people talking about how transitioning saved their lives (and I believe them), and the statistics around suicide and self-harm for young trans people are devastating.

I would like to believe that through a process of slow, compassionate negotiation (compassionate towards trans people and towards those who have fears about how any proposed changes to legislation and/or social relations might affect them) we might be able to re-construct the way we conduct society in such a way that trans people are able to live in a way that is congruent with their sense of selves.

I understand and accept that my position (such as it is) lacks substance, and I'm happy to accept that this is one of my many shortcomings as a fairly naive and under-educated political thinker.

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:56 pm**

oxo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:51 pm
CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:36 pm Oxo, what’s your position? On what basis do you think female people should be compelled to have the concept of female redefined to include male people who demand to be included in that category?
The honest truth is that I probably don't have a coherent position as such (by which I mean I don't have any policy points or whatever). I've read several accounts of trans people talking about how transitioning saved their lives (and I believe them), and the statistics around suicide and self-harm for young trans people are devastating.

I would like to believe that through a process of slow, compassionate negotiation (compassionate towards trans people and towards those who have fears about how any proposed changes to legislation and/or social relations might affect them) we might be able to re-construct the way we conduct society in such a way that trans people are able to live in a way that is congruent with their sense of selves.

I understand and accept that my position (such as it is) lacks substance, and I'm happy to accept that this is one of my many shortcomings as a fairly naive and under-educated political thinker.

OK, and I can see that your position is informed by compassion - and is pretty much aligned with where I was on this by default a few years ago.

But here’s the spanner in the works of that - it’s not about naivety or shortcomings; it’s just that everything you’ve just said relies on female people accepting that *they* have to be the ones accommodating and showing compassion to male people who demand it. And many feminists maintain that male people who expect female people to be accommodating of male needs, who expect female people’s compassion for those male needs to override their own needs, is actually a very good example of actual *gender conformity*; that men demanding women accommodate their needs doesnt exactly provide a compelling account that they are not men.

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:59 pm**

Also - genuinely - what are these devastating statistics for trans suicide of which you mention? The only stats I’ve seen are that the most vulnerable group to suicide are male people 7-10 years after full transition, but as far as I’m aware there are no good statistics that trans people are a particular suicide risk. Though trans activists do like to mention suicide a LOT

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:52 pm**

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:56 pm OK, and I can see that your position is informed by compassion - and is pretty much aligned with where I was on this by default a few years ago.

But here’s the spanner in the works of that - it’s not about naivety or shortcomings; it’s just that everything you’ve just said relies on female people accepting that *they* have to be the ones accommodating and showing compassion to male people who demand it.

Not everything I said: "...(compassionate towards trans people and towards those who have fears about how any proposed changes to legislation and/or social relations might affect them)"

I take your point, but I think this is where we are back on not-so-common ground, and I think that's how it's going to have to stay.

I do accept that there is a conflict between the desires of some trans women and some cis women but I don't think there's any kind of consensus among cis women, or cis feminist women, about the right way to move forward with this. I also would note again that a large proportion of trans people are female to male, so I don't accept the 'trans debate' is all about 'males' and what they want.

You've already told me that my thoughts on this subject are useless as far as you're concerned, and I've already accepted that, so it might be time for us to just leave it again I think.

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:53 pm**

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:59 pm Also - genuinely - what are these devastating statistics for trans suicide of which you mention? The only stats I’ve seen are that the most vulnerable group to suicide are male people 7-10 years after full transition, but as far as I’m aware there are no good statistics that trans people are a particular suicide risk. Though trans activists do like to mention suicide a LOT

I think this one is worth looking at: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345113/

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:01 pm**

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:56 pm
oxo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:51 pm
CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:36 pm Oxo, what’s your position? On what basis do you think female people should be compelled to have the concept of female redefined to include male people who demand to be included in that category?
The honest truth is that I probably don't have a coherent position as such (by which I mean I don't have any policy points or whatever). I've read several accounts of trans people talking about how transitioning saved their lives (and I believe them), and the statistics around suicide and self-harm for young trans people are devastating.

I would like to believe that through a process of slow, compassionate negotiation (compassionate towards trans people and towards those who have fears about how any proposed changes to legislation and/or social relations might affect them) we might be able to re-construct the way we conduct society in such a way that trans people are able to live in a way that is congruent with their sense of selves.

I understand and accept that my position (such as it is) lacks substance, and I'm happy to accept that this is one of my many shortcomings as a fairly naive and under-educated political thinker.

OK, and I can see that your position is informed by compassion - and is pretty much aligned with where I was on this by default a few years ago.

But here’s the spanner in the works of that - it’s not about naivety or shortcomings; it’s just that everything you’ve just said relies on female people accepting that *they* have to be the ones accommodating and showing compassion to male people who demand it. And many feminists maintain that male people who expect female people to be accommodating of male needs, who expect female people’s compassion for those male needs to override their own needs, is actually a very good example of actual *gender conformity*; that men demanding women accommodate their needs doesnt exactly provide a compelling account that they are not men.

What are their views on FTM ?

Posted: **Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:26 am**

oxo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:53 pm
CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:59 pm Also - genuinely - what are these devastating statistics for trans suicide of which you mention? The only stats I’ve seen are that the most vulnerable group to suicide are male people 7-10 years after full transition, but as far as I’m aware there are no good statistics that trans people are a particular suicide risk. Though trans activists do like to mention suicide a LOT
I think this one is worth looking at: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345113/

That article seems to not mention the sample size, nor how the cohort was found. It also mentions only self reported thoughts/attempts, and doesn’t seem to control at all for whether same sex attraction is present, which in young people is something that does have a statistical link to suicide due to bullying/homophobia/struggling with sexuality. Perhaps you can clear up some of that?
Maybe when doing so, you could clear up why you believe that alleged susceptibility to suicide should compel compliance from those upon whom a demand is being made that they redefine their understanding of what it is to be female?

Posted: **Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:29 am**

oxo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:52 pm
CEB wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:56 pm OK, and I can see that your position is informed by compassion - and is pretty much aligned with where I was on this by default a few years ago.

But here’s the spanner in the works of that - it’s not about naivety or shortcomings; it’s just that everything you’ve just said relies on female people accepting that *they* have to be the ones accommodating and showing compassion to male people who demand it.
Not everything I said: "...(compassionate towards trans people and towards those who have fears about how any proposed changes to legislation and/or social relations might affect them)"

I take your point, but I think this is where we are back on not-so-common ground, and I think that's how it's going to have to stay.

I do accept that there is a conflict between the desires of some trans women and some cis women but I don't think there's any kind of consensus among cis women, or cis feminist women, about the right way to move forward with this. I also would note again that a large proportion of trans people are female to male, so I don't accept the 'trans debate' is all about 'males' and what they want.

You've already told me that my thoughts on this subject are useless as far as you're concerned, and I've already accepted that, so it might be time for us to just leave it again I think.

Female people transitioning to identify as male aren’t a threat to women, so my objection, and those of feminists, are more focused on the demands of male people, while also being concerned about young girls identifying as boys on the basis that the numbers have risen sharply in recent years, and that there is a strong element of social contagion in the current trend for young same sex attracted women to identify as men. I can assure you that feminists are very concerned about practices like breast binding and cheerful references to “top surgery” (double mastectomies on healthy tissue carried out on young people with mental health issues)

Posted: **Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:44 am**

Are you saying instead of people being 'butch lesbians' they're being trans?

Posted: **Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:02 pm**

CEB wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:26 am That article seems to not mention the sample size, nor how the cohort was found.

n = 372 (transgender subset of broader survey (n = 6309)); recruitment via sexual and gender minority youth organizations and social media

CEB wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:26 am It also mentions only self reported thoughts/attempts, and doesn’t seem to control at all for whether same sex attraction is present, which in young people is something that does have a statistical link to suicide due to bullying/homophobia/struggling with sexuality.

They used a DSM assessement survey to assess suicidality (the exact same way the assess suicidality in studies of homsexual/bisexual young people). 'They might be lying about their suicidal thoughts', is probably the most disturbing objection I've ever encountered when discussing an article in a psych journal.

Partipant's sexual orientation was self-reported and presumably in at least some of the participants will be tied to their gender identity, so I'm not sure 'same sex' attraction can be controlled for here.

Bullying, transphobia and struggling with gender identity are just as 'real' and valid problems as bullying/homophobia/struggling with sexuality, I think.

CEB wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:26 am Maybe when doing so, you could clear up why you believe that alleged susceptibility to suicide should compel compliance from those upon whom a demand is being made that they redefine their understanding of what it is to be female?

I would like to believe that through a process of slow, compassionate negotiation (compassionate towards trans people and towards those who have fears about how any proposed changes to legislation and/or social relations might affect them) we might be able to re-construct the way we conduct society in such a way that trans people are able to live in a way that is congruent with their sense of selves.

Posted: **Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:02 pm**

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:44 am Are you saying instead of people being 'butch lesbians' they're being trans?

By the end of the university degree I finished in 2020, four young women who had spent the first year either in same sex relationships or were single but “out”, and had happily described themselves as lesbians had changed their pronouns to “they/them”, and then in the third year, while having the stress of the final year work and in a situation where at least two of the four had openly had mental health and food related issues, one by one, they identified as “he/him”, changed their names, and set up crowdfunders to have their breasts removed. The concern people had had for their mental health issues, turned into celebrating and lovebombing them once they came out as men, and the crowdfunders were shared happily with the same light tone as if they were raising money for a gap year trip to help build hospitals.

The one woman in my year who continued to describe herself as a lesbian was once asked to, since she had said she fancied a trans man, reconsider describing herself instead as bisexual or pansexual. In response, she laughingly, and naively said “hey, I’ll date anyone that doesn’t have a willy, I’m a lesbian!”. This apparently made her transphobic, and a fair few people stopped speaking to her

Posted: **Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:08 pm**

CEB wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:02 pm The one woman in my year who continued to describe herself as a lesbian was once asked to, since she had said she fancied a trans man, reconsider describing herself instead as bisexual or pansexual.

Probably the last exchange we'll have in this thread (barring any further responses from you), but I agree that this is appalling. It's nobody's business to ask anyone else to 'reconsider' their sexuality/sexual orientation.

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