Page 15 of 29
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:04 am
by CEB
The right - whether it’s far right, moderate tories in between self destruct cycles, or the red tories, are generally better at strategic approaches to gaining votes, looking at where they might get votes and targeting those areas, while the left sometimes treat it as a moral imperative.
The idea that the right looks for converts, the left for traitors is not a cliche for nothing.
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:12 am
by RedDwarf 1881
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:38 am
Any thoughts as to why Europeans have lurched to the right?
Going by what I’ve read it’s Mass immigration
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:24 am
by CEB
“Mass immigration” is a concept deployed by the right; it isn’t a reason as of itself. Nor does the right actually address the issues that immigration is blamed for.
So the question remains as to why there are times that electorates are more amenable to the idea of voting for right wing parties
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:53 am
by Chief crazy horse
Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:58 am
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:38 am
Any thoughts as to why Europeans have lurched to the right?
A few thoughts:
Stagnant wage growth (at best) since 2008
Rapid deindustrialisation - especially for Germany
Ageing demographics creating an imbalance between generational cohorts
Increased national security concerns
Unprecedented mass immigration
Flatlining productivity levels
Coordinated and targeted far-right campaigns through social media
An over-production of a cultural elite
The increasing disconnect of the economic elite
The end of the post-war economic and security consensus
Is that all ? ..easily remedied.
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:55 am
by CEB
Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:58 am
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:38 am
Any thoughts as to why Europeans have lurched to the right?
A few thoughts:
Stagnant wage growth (at best) since 2008
Rapid deindustrialisation - especially for Germany
Ageing demographics creating an imbalance between generational cohorts
Increased national security concerns
Unprecedented mass immigration
Flatlining productivity levels
Coordinated and targeted far-right campaigns through social media
An over-production of a cultural elite
The increasing disconnect of the economic elite
The end of the post-war economic and security consensus
Er… no. Dawn Butler has the answer
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:08 pm
by Long slender neck
CEB wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:24 am
“Mass immigration” is a concept deployed by the right; it isn’t a reason as of itself. Nor does the right actually address the issues that immigration is blamed for.
So the question remains as to why there are times that electorates are more amenable to the idea of voting for right wing parties
That reads like a dismissal of any concerns about immigration.
Mindsweeps graphic on the previous page comes to mind - "refusal to tackle problems that led to rise of far right".
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:11 pm
by CEB
It’s not meant to be - I mean it to also be damning of alternatives to right wing parties that they haven’t addressed the underpinning societal issues that are easily blamed on immigration, and have been slow to react to actual issues when they’ve arisen
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:12 pm
by Long slender neck
Why arent these issues addressed?
As well as the 'issues', I think people look at the fairness of things- e.g. people dont like to see immigrants turn up and get anything from the state. The immigrants are seen as undeserving.
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:59 pm
by The Mindsweep
If people think the immigration issue is going away they haven't been paying attention. What is happening now is minor. When increased conflict in Europe, climate change leading to water shortages, AI being able to do more and more jobs, then we will start to get some sort of mass migration.
We ain't going back to people staying put as much as they used to. Countries that understand this will fair much better in the medium to long term. The way the UK is heading it's looking like the boats we see carrying migrants in the future, will be the ones heading away from the UK.
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:06 pm
by Chief crazy horse
ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:05 am
I fear Farage will win Clacton, and we will have our first genuine fascist in the House of Commons for decades.
The far right have always offered simplistic solutions for all the problems society faces, and most ( not all) who support them, lets say, are not the most intelligent individuals.
It feels at the moment, like it probably did in Germany, in the late 20's , early 30's, when the far right offered simplistic solutions, and blamed a minority for all those problems.
History tells us, when the people turn far right, it always ends bad, but people never learn
The only thing we learn from history is we never learn from history
Farage is not a fascist - the same as I wouldn't call you a Stalinist - and I'm not so sure he will win Clacton either.
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 2:31 pm
by RedDwarf 1881
ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 8:14 pm
RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 8:00 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 5:50 pm
You can just about see the penny drop, as she realises mid-sentence the logic fallacy behind the policy.
Not having nuclear weapons certainly worked for Ukraine .........
If Ukraine had Nuclear Weapons, would you have wanted them to use them then?
Of course not but it might have made Putin think twice with countless lives saved .
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:31 pm
by Max B Gold
Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:06 pm
ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:05 am
I fear Farage will win Clacton, and we will have our first genuine fascist in the House of Commons for decades.
The far right have always offered simplistic solutions for all the problems society faces, and most ( not all) who support them, lets say, are not the most intelligent individuals.
It feels at the moment, like it probably did in Germany, in the late 20's , early 30's, when the far right offered simplistic solutions, and blamed a minority for all those problems.
History tells us, when the people turn far right, it always ends bad, but people never learn
The only thing we learn from history is we never learn from history
Farage is not a fascist - the same as I wouldn't call you a Stalinist - and I'm not so sure he will win Clacton either.
I see a Reform candidate has been accused of "Nazi apologism" for saying Britain should have made peace with the well known fascist Mr A Hitler. Its not dark yet but we're gettin' there.
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:12 pm
by Chief crazy horse
There's always a crank that crops up.
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:18 pm
by CEB
Especially when the party is inherently composed of racist cranks
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 7:24 pm
by Chief crazy horse
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:31 pm
Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:06 pm
ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:05 am
I fear Farage will win Clacton, and we will have our first genuine fascist in the House of Commons for decades.
The far right have always offered simplistic solutions for all the problems society faces, and most ( not all) who support them, lets say, are not the most intelligent individuals.
It feels at the moment, like it probably did in Germany, in the late 20's , early 30's, when the far right offered simplistic solutions, and blamed a minority for all those problems.
History tells us, when the people turn far right, it always ends bad, but people never learn
The only thing we learn from history is we never learn from history
Farage is not a fascist - the same as I wouldn't call you a Stalinist - and I'm not so sure he will win Clacton either.
I see a Reform candidate has been accused of "Nazi apologism" for saying Britain should have made peace with the well known fascist Mr A Hitler. Its not dark yet but we're gettin' there.
Yes, like I say there's always nut jobs...remember that holocaust denier quite a few years back, Irwin or something, his name?
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 7:49 pm
by Sid Bishop
Meanwhile while many UK political parties wish to spend ever greater sums of money on public spending such as the the NHS, welfare etc, take into consideration that Government spending is completely out of control and debt repayments on the current national debt in the year ahead is expected to be around 89 billion pounds a year !!
Debt interest (central government, net of APF)
''in 2024-25 we expect debt interest spending to total £89.0 billion. That would represent 7.3 per cent of total public spending and is equivalent to nearly 3.2 per cent of national income''
https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-b ... nment-net/
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:10 pm
by Max B Gold
Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 7:24 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:31 pm
Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:06 pm
Farage is not a fascist - the same as I wouldn't call you a Stalinist - and I'm not so sure he will win Clacton either.
I see a Reform candidate has been accused of "Nazi apologism" for saying Britain should have made peace with the well known fascist Mr A Hitler. Its not dark yet but we're gettin' there.
Yes, like I say there's always nut jobs...remember that holocaust denier quite a few years back, Irwin or something, his name?
Especially when the party is inherently composed of racist cranks
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:12 pm
by Max B Gold
Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 7:49 pm
Meanwhile while many UK political parties wish to spend ever greater sums of money on public spending such as the the NHS, welfare etc, take into consideration that Government spending is completely out of control and debt repayments on the current national debt in the year ahead is expected to be around 89 billion pounds a year !!
Debt interest (central government, net of APF)
''in 2024-25 we expect debt interest spending to total £89.0 billion. That would represent 7.3 per cent of total public spending and is equivalent to nearly 3.2 per cent of national income''
https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-b ... nment-net/
Hmm - interesting. Is it good or bad news? Should we be worried?
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:15 pm
by Sid Bishop
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:12 pm
Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 7:49 pm
Meanwhile while many UK political parties wish to spend ever greater sums of money on public spending such as the the NHS, welfare etc, take into consideration that Government spending is completely out of control and debt repayments on the current national debt in the year ahead is expected to be around 89 billion pounds a year !!
Debt interest (central government, net of APF)
''in 2024-25 we expect debt interest spending to total £89.0 billion. That would represent 7.3 per cent of total public spending and is equivalent to nearly 3.2 per cent of national income''
https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-b ... nment-net/
Hmm - interesting. Is it good or bad news? Should we be worried?
The national debt recently exceeded £1 trillion for the first time and is currently equivalent to around two-thirds of annual economic output (GDP).
Mr. Micawber's famous quote....Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds naught and six, result misery !!
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:18 pm
by Friend or fart
Perhaps like Mr Micawber, we are hoping that something will turn up.
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:07 pm
by Chief crazy horse
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:10 pm
Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 7:24 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:31 pm
I see a Reform candidate has been accused of "Nazi apologism" for saying Britain should have made peace with the well known fascist Mr A Hitler. Its not dark yet but we're gettin' there.
Yes, like I say there's always nut jobs...remember that holocaust denier quite a few years back, Irwin or something, his name?
Especially when the party is inherently composed of racist cranks
I know, makes you wonder how we live with all the millions of Hitlers.
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:38 am
by EastDerehamO
Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:07 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:10 pm
Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 7:24 pm
Yes, like I say there's always nut jobs...remember that holocaust denier quite a few years back, Irwin or something, his name?
Especially when the party is inherently composed of racist cranks
I know, makes you wonder how we live with all the millions of Hitlers.
Yeah, anyone of a different opinion must immediately be called out as a fascist/ loony left/ racialist/ lacking intelligence etc, and anyone they have associated with too.
Some people are some of those things, but we’re talking a really small minority here, many get unfairly tagged simply cos it’s far easier to insult label someone than bothering to address their views.
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:47 am
by Hoover Attack
What are the views of a typical Reform voter?
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 8:09 am
by Currywurst and Chips
Conservative manifesto day
Free tax cuts for all (after we raised the tax burden to its highest ever)
Slashing immigration numbers (after we raised net migration to its highest ever)
Re: Election Watch
Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 8:10 am
by Currywurst and Chips
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:47 am
What are the views of a typical Reform voter?
How would one get “typical views” out of a potential pool of a few million voters?