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Agreed that it should be Medical professionals making the calls. And as far as I know, it already is. Medical professionals record the cause of death. So if a death is currently recorded as a covid death then we are agreed that a covid death it is!Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:48 pm Its surely a judgement the medical staff should be making, but all I've heard is about people being put down as died 'with coronavirus' regardless. All the deaths matter, I dont think anybody is saying otherwise. The best metric will be the excess deaths.
Problem is Bonio that people who have had Covid and later died of something completely unrelated ( In one famous case a guy hit by a car whilst riding his motorbike!) are still being counted as a Covid death. Public Health England have been challenged on this and promised a review of the roporting process about a month ago - still waiting. It means if it continues in the same way the 305,000 people who have teasted positive will all be counted as a covid death no matter what their demise is- it's the reason PHE have failed to publish the number of people recovered.BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:56 pmAgreed that it should be Medical professionals making the calls. And as far as I know, it already is. Medical professionals record the cause of death. So if a death is currently recorded as a covid death then we are agreed that a covid death it is!Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:48 pm Its surely a judgement the medical staff should be making, but all I've heard is about people being put down as died 'with coronavirus' regardless. All the deaths matter, I dont think anybody is saying otherwise. The best metric will be the excess deaths.
Underlying conditions, whilst playing a part in the outcome, are irrelevant to the figures. If it's covid that comes along and finishes you off, and a doctor records it as such, then it is a covid death.
OK - so where is the proof of the scale of this "problem"? What you're suggesting is that doctors are knowingly and routinely falsifying "cause of death" and I find that somewhat hard to believe. They'd risk being struck off at the very least with other possible legal implications to follow. Is that really likely?Top of the JES wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:39 pmProblem is Bonio that people who have had Covid and later died of something completely unrelated ( In one famous case a guy hit by a car whilst riding his motorbike!) are still being counted as a Covid death. Public Health England have been challenged on this and promised a review of the roporting process about a month ago - still waiting. It means if it continues in the same way the 305,000 people who have teasted positive will all be counted as a covid death no matter what their demise is- it's the reason PHE have failed to publish the number of people recovered.BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:56 pmAgreed that it should be Medical professionals making the calls. And as far as I know, it already is. Medical professionals record the cause of death. So if a death is currently recorded as a covid death then we are agreed that a covid death it is!Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:48 pm Its surely a judgement the medical staff should be making, but all I've heard is about people being put down as died 'with coronavirus' regardless. All the deaths matter, I dont think anybody is saying otherwise. The best metric will be the excess deaths.
Underlying conditions, whilst playing a part in the outcome, are irrelevant to the figures. If it's covid that comes along and finishes you off, and a doctor records it as such, then it is a covid death.
What PHE are trying to acheive is beyond me, perhaps some weird way to justify goverment funding but it's so transparemtly wrong.
He would have had covid related death as a secondary cause on his death certificate .Top of the JES wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:39 pmProblem is Bonio that people who have had Covid and later died of something completely unrelated ( In one famous case a guy hit by a car whilst riding his motorbike!) are still being counted as a Covid death. Public Health England have been challenged on this and promised a review of the roporting process about a month ago - still waiting. It means if it continues in the same way the 305,000 people who have teasted positive will all be counted as a covid death no matter what their demise is- it's the reason PHE have failed to publish the number of people recovered.BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:56 pmAgreed that it should be Medical professionals making the calls. And as far as I know, it already is. Medical professionals record the cause of death. So if a death is currently recorded as a covid death then we are agreed that a covid death it is!Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:48 pm Its surely a judgement the medical staff should be making, but all I've heard is about people being put down as died 'with coronavirus' regardless. All the deaths matter, I dont think anybody is saying otherwise. The best metric will be the excess deaths.
Underlying conditions, whilst playing a part in the outcome, are irrelevant to the figures. If it's covid that comes along and finishes you off, and a doctor records it as such, then it is a covid death.
What PHE are trying to acheive is beyond me, perhaps some weird way to justify goverment funding but it's so transparemtly wrong.
So what is your conclusion from this data?Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:05 pm https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 24july2020
Excess deaths stats
OK - given the reduced covid deaths being currently reported that's probably approaching the truth, at the moment. My main thrust was to question whether the overall number of deaths caused by Covid has been exaggerated, intentionally or not, by recording "cause of death" as covid when it patently wasn't. I don't believe this has been the case as Doctors would be individually liable for any such falsely completed death certificates.Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:12 pm That deaths have been at a normal level for some weeks now.
https://inews.co.uk/news/health/matt-ha ... res-552535BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:52 pmOK - so where is the proof of the scale of this "problem"? What you're suggesting is that doctors are knowingly and routinely falsifying "cause of death" and I find that somewhat hard to believe. They'd risk being struck off at the very least with other possible legal implications to follow. Is that really likely?Top of the JES wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:39 pmProblem is Bonio that people who have had Covid and later died of something completely unrelated ( In one famous case a guy hit by a car whilst riding his motorbike!) are still being counted as a Covid death. Public Health England have been challenged on this and promised a review of the roporting process about a month ago - still waiting. It means if it continues in the same way the 305,000 people who have teasted positive will all be counted as a covid death no matter what their demise is- it's the reason PHE have failed to publish the number of people recovered.BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:56 pm
Agreed that it should be Medical professionals making the calls. And as far as I know, it already is. Medical professionals record the cause of death. So if a death is currently recorded as a covid death then we are agreed that a covid death it is!
Underlying conditions, whilst playing a part in the outcome, are irrelevant to the figures. If it's covid that comes along and finishes you off, and a doctor records it as such, then it is a covid death.
What PHE are trying to acheive is beyond me, perhaps some weird way to justify goverment funding but it's so transparemtly wrong.
Missed this post. All I'm saying is if anybody should, the over 50s should be the ones isolating because they are the vulnerable. We seem to somehow have control of it at the moment so hopefully a second lockdown will not be necessary, but if it is, what is to be gained by locking down the young?Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:35 pm I know 5 people under 50 through work still suffering nasty effects after a mild dose of it. Fairly small percentage of people given the number of us getting positive antibody tests but not much comfort for them. That's without recognising the impact of people who are asymptomatic spreading it around to people who are vulnerable.
Despite all the coverage there really are a lot of people who were safely working from home all the way through who really don't have a f*cking clue how bad it was. Yes, they were over 50, so in your view dont count but I know three people personally who died, all were in reasonably good health for their age. I know other people who have lost several family members. Still, much more important that you don't get too bored.
Yup, but as it also mentions it isn't expected that this will be a "massive distortion" to the figures. It needs to be corrected clearly, and I'm sure it will be.Top of the JES wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:35 pmhttps://inews.co.uk/news/health/matt-ha ... res-552535BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:52 pmOK - so where is the proof of the scale of this "problem"? What you're suggesting is that doctors are knowingly and routinely falsifying "cause of death" and I find that somewhat hard to believe. They'd risk being struck off at the very least with other possible legal implications to follow. Is that really likely?Top of the JES wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:39 pm
Problem is Bonio that people who have had Covid and later died of something completely unrelated ( In one famous case a guy hit by a car whilst riding his motorbike!) are still being counted as a Covid death. Public Health England have been challenged on this and promised a review of the roporting process about a month ago - still waiting. It means if it continues in the same way the 305,000 people who have teasted positive will all be counted as a covid death no matter what their demise is- it's the reason PHE have failed to publish the number of people recovered.
What PHE are trying to acheive is beyond me, perhaps some weird way to justify goverment funding but it's so transparemtly wrong.
Two fair points. Personally when I mention underlying health conditions, the point I'm making is that people without them do not need to worry so much.BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:21 pmOK - given the reduced covid deaths being currently reported that's probably approaching the truth, at the moment. My main thrust was to question whether the overall number of deaths caused by Covid has been exaggerated, intentionally or not, by recording "cause of death" as covid when it patently wasn't. I don't believe this has been the case as Doctors would be individually liable for any such falsely completed death certificates.Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:12 pm That deaths have been at a normal level for some weeks now.
Secondly, I think it's bunkum to keep throwing in "underlying health causes" as a reason to believe the death by covid stats are too high. As stated above, if it's covid that finishes you off then it should be covid on the death certificate irrespective of you having any other health conditions.
There will be a massive disparity though, if everyone who has been positive is going to be deemed as dying of Covid that will be at least 305,000 deaths which is nuts. In other countries they don't count people who have been Covid recovered for two weeks or more. Still waiting for PHE rationale for counting absolutely everyone.BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:21 pmYup, but as it also mentions it isn't expected that this will be a "massive distortion" to the figures. It needs to be corrected clearly, and I'm sure it will be.Top of the JES wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:35 pmhttps://inews.co.uk/news/health/matt-ha ... res-552535BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:52 pm
OK - so where is the proof of the scale of this "problem"? What you're suggesting is that doctors are knowingly and routinely falsifying "cause of death" and I find that somewhat hard to believe. They'd risk being struck off at the very least with other possible legal implications to follow. Is that really likely?
Well if you knew about this months ago you should have told Matt Hancock! Seems he was unaware as he's only just ordered an inquiry.Thor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:14 pm As I've been saying for months now.
A death can be registered with both COVID-19 and Influenza and Pneumonia mentioned on the death certificate. Because pneumonia may be a consequence of COVID-19, deaths where both were mentioned have been counted only in the COVID-19 category.
Why will there be a massive disparity? The article you linked to remarks that it won't be a massive distortion. You quote 305,000 deaths being recorded as being down to covid but that won't happen now as the loophole in PHE data will be fixed.Top of the JES wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:28 pmThere will be a massive disparity though, if everyone who has been positive is going to be deemed as dying of Covid that will be at least 305,000 deaths which is nuts. In other countries they don't count people who have been Covid recovered for two weeks or more. Still waiting for PHE rationale for counting absolutely everyone.BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:21 pmYup, but as it also mentions it isn't expected that this will be a "massive distortion" to the figures. It needs to be corrected clearly, and I'm sure it will be.Top of the JES wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:35 pm
https://inews.co.uk/news/health/matt-ha ... res-552535
I believe doctors and coroners have to mention on the death certificate if a patient has ever had Covid, PHE then record it as a Covid death.
Hope you are right because even up to last week PHE were adding deaths to the daily total, when 24 people recorded to have died on one date in question but 74 recorded by PHE, PHE are yet to correct their figures or explain away the cases they keep adding. I'm not suggesting any sort of conspiracy just core incompetence by PHE.BoniO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:36 pmWhy will there be a massive disparity? The article you linked to remarks that it won't be a massive distortion. You quote 305,000 deaths being recorded as being down to covid but that won't happen now as the loophole in PHE data will be fixed.Top of the JES wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:28 pmThere will be a massive disparity though, if everyone who has been positive is going to be deemed as dying of Covid that will be at least 305,000 deaths which is nuts. In other countries they don't count people who have been Covid recovered for two weeks or more. Still waiting for PHE rationale for counting absolutely everyone.
I believe doctors and coroners have to mention on the death certificate if a patient has ever had Covid, PHE then record it as a Covid death.
Agreed. It would appear from the article JES posted that Scotland and Wales placed an arbitrary period of 29 days from diagnosis until death for it to be classed as a covid death. That will reduce the numbers but is that 100% correct? I doubt it very much.PoliticOs wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:46 pm There is obviously work to be done to make sure we're collating data properly here and giving ourselves the best chance to understand the virus, however, this has been a concern for a while. One thing I'd say is that if an 80 year old has Covid-19 in March, recovers, and dies in April - would it be completely unrealistic to say that this death was not part of Covid's long ranging health consequences? Much like April til now. The whole 'of' or 'with' debate isn't really clear cut as an either or issue, I think it's entirely likely someone will die in August having had Covid in June and recovered from the actual illness but died from its lasting weakness and affects.
Ignoring rules of social distancing is the reason PrestonPrestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:17 pmMissed this post. All I'm saying is if anybody should, the over 50s should be the ones isolating because they are the vulnerable. We seem to somehow have control of it at the moment so hopefully a second lockdown will not be necessary, but if it is, what is to be gained by locking down the young?Mick McQuaid wrote: ↑Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:35 pm I know 5 people under 50 through work still suffering nasty effects after a mild dose of it. Fairly small percentage of people given the number of us getting positive antibody tests but not much comfort for them. That's without recognising the impact of people who are asymptomatic spreading it around to people who are vulnerable.
Despite all the coverage there really are a lot of people who were safely working from home all the way through who really don't have a f*cking clue how bad it was. Yes, they were over 50, so in your view dont count but I know three people personally who died, all were in reasonably good health for their age. I know other people who have lost several family members. Still, much more important that you don't get too bored.
"Preston warns young people not to 'kill granny' as data shows almost half of new cases are in under 30s"Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:18 pm Because nobody over 45 is irresponsible? Any proof out there that it's the young driving new infections? -
Edit- ok in Preston they are, just found an article.
Could easily switch your argument around though. Why should the young suffer because of a danger to the old? People of all ages need to take responsibility for themselves.