Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:21 pm Depends on your definition of materially significant.

There's been an estimated 500K fatalities in Syria, 400K in Yeman, 300K in Iraq, 250K in Afghanistan...

I could go on, but even if we pause there and take the estimated 40K dead in Gaza as correct, that's less than 3% of deaths in current or very recent conflicts for the region.

I said materially different not significant. The whole premise of your post is merely Genocide denial and whataboutery. I expected better.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:31 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:21 pm Depends on your definition of materially significant.

There's been an estimated 500K fatalities in Syria, 400K in Yeman, 300K in Iraq, 250K in Afghanistan...

I could go on, but even if we pause there and take the estimated 40K dead in Gaza as correct, that's less than 3% of deaths in current or very recent conflicts for the region.

I said materially different not significant. The whole premise of your post is merely Genocide denial and whataboutery. I expected better.

Throw in Sudan and it's a rounding error on a spreadsheet.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:34 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:31 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:21 pm Depends on your definition of materially significant.

There's been an estimated 500K fatalities in Syria, 400K in Yeman, 300K in Iraq, 250K in Afghanistan...

I could go on, but even if we pause there and take the estimated 40K dead in Gaza as correct, that's less than 3% of deaths in current or very recent conflicts for the region.

I said materially different not significant. The whole premise of your post is merely Genocide denial and whataboutery. I expected better.

Throw in Sudan and it's a rounding error on a spreadsheet.

So, what are you saying?

That the 40k killed in Israel is small fry compared to other conflicts so why bother?

You’re just blowing smoke.

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:39 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:34 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:31 pm

I said materially different not significant. The whole premise of your post is merely Genocide denial and whataboutery. I expected better.

Throw in Sudan and it's a rounding error on a spreadsheet.

So, what are you saying?

That the 40k killed in Israel is small fry compared to other conflicts so why bother?

You’re just blowing smoke.

No. That's not what I'm saying.

It was a comment in response to Jeremy Bentham's post that, without Zionism, the region would be relatively peaceful.

Well, that was far from clear.

The state of Israel is Western backed - financially and politically and, of course, it’s also armed by the West. The other states you mentioned are not (not to anything like the same level - acknowledging that arms dealers will sell to anyone),

Israel, allegedly, upholds Western values in order to receive continuing support from the West. It clearly doesn’t and is continuing its genocide against innocent civilians. Why don’t you just stop the whataboutery and just acknowledge that Israel is a murderous state?

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:46 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:39 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:34 pm

Throw in Sudan and it's a rounding error on a spreadsheet.

So, what are you saying?

That the 40k killed in Israel is small fry compared to other conflicts so why bother?

You’re just blowing smoke.

No. That's not what I'm saying.

It was a comment in response to Jeremy Bentham's post that, without Zionism, the region would be relatively peaceful.

It was a comment in response to Max B Gold wasn't it?
If it was Jeremy Bentham surely he would have been quited No?

I have acknowledged Israel's actions previously on this thread.

Bandy Legs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:08 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:46 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:39 pm

So, what are you saying?

That the 40k killed in Israel is small fry compared to other conflicts so why bother?

You’re just blowing smoke.

No. That's not what I'm saying.

It was a comment in response to Jeremy Bentham's post that, without Zionism, the region would be relatively peaceful.

It was a comment in response to Max B Gold wasn't it?
If it was Jeremy Bentham surely he would have been quited No?

No. That was a comment in response to a comment. It is complicated.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:11 pm I have acknowledged Israel's actions previously on this thread.

Then why belittle the 40k deaths in Gaza as being only 3% of deaths from other conflicts? That can only be construed as minimising the scale of Israel’s genocidal massacre in Gaza.

Or are you only on here to try and point score against other MB’ers?

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:46 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:39 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:34 pm

Throw in Sudan and it's a rounding error on a spreadsheet.

So, what are you saying?

That the 40k killed in Israel is small fry compared to other conflicts so why bother?

You’re just blowing smoke.

No. That's not what I'm saying.

It was a comment in response to Jeremy Bentham's post that, without Zionism, the region would be relatively peaceful.

Naw it wiznae.

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:22 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:11 pm I have acknowledged Israel's actions previously on this thread.

Then why belittle the 40k deaths in Gaza as being only 3% of deaths from other conflicts? That can only be construed as minimising the scale of Israel’s genocidal massacre in Gaza.

Or are you only on here to try and point score against other MB’ers?

*sighs.

It's not belittling.

1. Bentham suggested that, without Zionism, the region would be a relatively peaceful collection of democratic nation states.

2. I pointed out the evidence to the contrary. Including the scale of deaths in the region, which are not associated with Zionism.

3. You and Max have then intervened, gone into full-on crank mode, and here we are.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:35 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:22 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:11 pm I have acknowledged Israel's actions previously on this thread.

Then why belittle the 40k deaths in Gaza as being only 3% of deaths from other conflicts? That can only be construed as minimising the scale of Israel’s genocidal massacre in Gaza.

Or are you only on here to try and point score against other MB’ers?

*sighs.

It's not belittling.

1. Bentham suggested that, without Zionism, the region would be a relatively peaceful collection of democratic nation states.

2. I pointed out the evidence to the contrary. Including the scale of deaths in the region, which are not associated with Zionism.

3. You and Max have then intervened, gone into full-on crank mode, and here we are.

Sigh all you like but we all know you’re talking bollox.

Referencing the Gaza massacre as only 3% of recent deaths in the region can only be seen as I described above. We both know that.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:35 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:22 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:11 pm I have acknowledged Israel's actions previously on this thread.

Then why belittle the 40k deaths in Gaza as being only 3% of deaths from other conflicts? That can only be construed as minimising the scale of Israel’s genocidal massacre in Gaza.

Or are you only on here to try and point score against other MB’ers?

*sighs.

It's not belittling.

1. Bentham suggested that, without Zionism, the region would be a relatively peaceful collection of democratic nation states.

2. I pointed out the evidence to the contrary. Including the scale of deaths in the region, which are not associated with Zionism.

3. You and Max have then intervened, gone into full-on crank mode, and here we are.

I pointed out that the material difference was the Genocide. Whilst the total deaths are far higher in the other parts of the ME none of them arise from a targeted Genocide. That doesn't make me a crank. That's just lazy talk from someone who can't acknowledge reality and is an apologist for Zionism.

Hmmm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:35 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:22 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:11 pm I have acknowledged Israel's actions previously on this thread.

Then why belittle the 40k deaths in Gaza as being only 3% of deaths from other conflicts? That can only be construed as minimising the scale of Israel’s genocidal massacre in Gaza.

Or are you only on here to try and point score against other MB’ers?

*sighs.

It's not belittling.

1. Bentham suggested that, without Zionism, the region would be a relatively peaceful collection of democratic nation states.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 12:10 pm

Jeremy Bentham wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 9:45 am As I understand it, Jews, Muslims and Christians generally lived peacefully alongside each other in Palestine before Zionism took hold and anyway it would be different now as modern democratic states do not allow mob violence (or haven't up till now...) There are currently 118000 Jews living safely and peacefully in Germany, a state that murdered millions of Jews in living memory.

There's a lot to (respectfully) pick apart here.

The region has always been volatile. Whether it be due to the ambitions of Persian or Ottoman rulers through to pan-Arabic conflicts. Sure, you could say the same about most regions, but Zionism has not resulted in anything materially different.

But I think you are assuming that, without Zionism, the emergence of democratic nation states would have been the natural order for the region. I think that's a huge assumption and one which many of the regions opponents of Israel would be quick to dismiss.

2. I pointed out the evidence to the contrary. Including the scale of deaths in the region, which are not associated with Zionism.

3. You and Max have then intervened, gone into full-on crank mode, and here we are.

It looks like you were assuming when you say
" I think"
You are assuming something surely?
I know, It's complicated.

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:46 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:39 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:34 pm

Throw in Sudan and it's a rounding error on a spreadsheet.

So, what are you saying?

That the 40k killed in Israel is small fry compared to other conflicts so why bother?

You’re just blowing smoke.

No. That's not what I'm saying.

It was a comment in response to Jeremy Bentham's post that, without Zionism, the region would be relatively peaceful.

I didn't say that, I said that before Zionism it was relatively peaceful but anyway, in the modern context there's no reason why a democratic state wouldn't be able to exist in the region. Israel and its supporters always bang on about it being "the only democracy in the Middle East", if that was true in reality, there would be peace in the region, it's so obviously the only solution.

Oh look, it WAS Israeli propaganda, what a shock.

So where are we at the moment?
Another airstrike kills at least 30 people in North Gaza.
The Pope has called for an investigation into whether Israel is committing genocide.
44,000 people, mainly women & children, have been killed in Gaza.
Gaza has been sealed off for 13 months, ignoring the International Court of Justice which is calling to permit entry to investigate a plausible genocide.
Human Rights Watch recently accused Israel of War crimes & crimes against humanity & violent organised displacement of Palestinians.
Concerns grow over the deliberate starvation of Gaza.
The Israeli newspaper, Haaretz, say that Israel plans to turn at least part of Gaza into occupied zones.
I have long suspected that the relentless carpet bombing was a precursor to permanent occupation of Palestinian land.
Let us be in no doubt - we are witnessing outrage upon outrage & collective punishment. We have seen a constant diet of lies & propoganda by the Israeli Government & the IDF.
In my view, it cannot be stated often enough how shocking Israel's actions in Gaza have been.
The International community, especially USA, has much to be ashamed of.

Jeremy Bentham wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 7:01 pm Oh look, it WAS Israeli propaganda, what a shock.

But the bigger “shock” is how News Agencies and Governments around the World were happy to propagate the lie, even when they 100% knew it was a lie.

It just demonstrates how much influence the Israeli cause has on the media. It’s quite sickening.

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2024 11:10 am

Jeremy Bentham wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 7:01 pm Oh look, it WAS Israeli propaganda, what a shock.

But the bigger “shock” is how News Agencies and Governments around the World were happy to propagate the lie, even when they 100% knew it was a lie.

It just demonstrates how much influence the Israeli cause has on the media. It’s quite sickening.

New York Times pulled their investigation into it when it became clear the violent thugs at the centre of the "pogrom" were Maccabi fans because of Israeli intervention.

We live in an alternative reality created for us by the ruling class and their lackeys in the media. Truth is the casualty.

BREAKING: Arrest Warrants Issued for Benjamin Netanyahu & Yoav Gallant

The International Criminal Court (ICC) issued the warrants for Israeli Prime Minister & former defence secretary "for crimes against humanity and war crimes."

Better Late Than Never

Biden definitely should also be issued with an arrest warrant.
Without his bombs & missiles, this genocide wouldn't have been possible
There's a case for Starmer too

Qin wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 1:13 pm Biden definitely should also be issued with an arrest warrant.
Without his bombs & missiles, this genocide wouldn't have been possible
There's a case for Starmer too

Trump as well, moving the U.S Embassy to Jerusalem emboldened Nettyzis stance of destroying Palestine.

I note that Amnesty International have confirmed a Genocide is being carried out in Gaza.

It won’t deter Israel from continuing though.

After time, even genocide can become the norm and not really newsworthy. It helps that Israel has the support of most Western Governments and media. Makes you proud…

Just for balance...

https://www.newsweek.com/how-amnesty-in ... on-1996024