Page 133 of 133
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:31 pm
by Max B Gold
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:21 pm
Depends on your definition of materially significant.
There's been an estimated 500K fatalities in Syria, 400K in Yeman, 300K in Iraq, 250K in Afghanistan...
I could go on, but even if we pause there and take the estimated 40K dead in Gaza as correct, that's less than 3% of deaths in current or very recent conflicts for the region.
I said materially different not significant. The whole premise of your post is merely Genocide denial and whataboutery. I expected better.
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:34 pm
by Dunners
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:31 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:21 pm
Depends on your definition of materially significant.
There's been an estimated 500K fatalities in Syria, 400K in Yeman, 300K in Iraq, 250K in Afghanistan...
I could go on, but even if we pause there and take the estimated 40K dead in Gaza as correct, that's less than 3% of deaths in current or very recent conflicts for the region.
I said materially different not significant. The whole premise of your post is merely Genocide denial and whataboutery. I expected better.
Throw in Sudan and it's a rounding error on a spreadsheet.
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:39 pm
by BoniO
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:34 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:31 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:21 pm
Depends on your definition of materially significant.
There's been an estimated 500K fatalities in Syria, 400K in Yeman, 300K in Iraq, 250K in Afghanistan...
I could go on, but even if we pause there and take the estimated 40K dead in Gaza as correct, that's less than 3% of deaths in current or very recent conflicts for the region.
I said materially different not significant. The whole premise of your post is merely Genocide denial and whataboutery. I expected better.
Throw in Sudan and it's a rounding error on a spreadsheet.
So, what are you saying?
That the 40k killed in Israel is small fry compared to other conflicts so why bother?
You’re just blowing smoke.
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:46 pm
by Dunners
BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:39 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:34 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:31 pm
I said materially different not significant. The whole premise of your post is merely Genocide denial and whataboutery. I expected better.
Throw in Sudan and it's a rounding error on a spreadsheet.
So, what are you saying?
That the 40k killed in Israel is small fry compared to other conflicts so why bother?
You’re just blowing smoke.
No. That's not what I'm saying.
It was a comment in response to Jeremy Bentham's post that, without Zionism, the region would be relatively peaceful.
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:59 pm
by BoniO
Well, that was far from clear.
The state of Israel is Western backed - financially and politically and, of course, it’s also armed by the West. The other states you mentioned are not (not to anything like the same level - acknowledging that arms dealers will sell to anyone),
Israel, allegedly, upholds Western values in order to receive continuing support from the West. It clearly doesn’t and is continuing its genocide against innocent civilians. Why don’t you just stop the whataboutery and just acknowledge that Israel is a murderous state?
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:08 pm
by Bandy Legs
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:46 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:39 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:34 pm
Throw in Sudan and it's a rounding error on a spreadsheet.
So, what are you saying?
That the 40k killed in Israel is small fry compared to other conflicts so why bother?
You’re just blowing smoke.
No. That's not what I'm saying.
It was a comment in response to Jeremy Bentham's post that, without Zionism, the region would be relatively peaceful.
It was a comment in response to Max B Gold wasn't it?
If it was Jeremy Bentham surely he would have been quited No?
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:11 pm
by Dunners
I have acknowledged Israel's actions previously on this thread.
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:12 pm
by Dunners
Bandy Legs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:08 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:46 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:39 pm
So, what are you saying?
That the 40k killed in Israel is small fry compared to other conflicts so why bother?
You’re just blowing smoke.
No. That's not what I'm saying.
It was a comment in response to Jeremy Bentham's post that, without Zionism, the region would be relatively peaceful.
It was a comment in response to Max B Gold wasn't it?
If it was Jeremy Bentham surely he would have been quited No?
No. That was a comment in response to a comment. It is complicated.
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:22 pm
by BoniO
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:11 pm
I have acknowledged Israel's actions previously on this thread.
Then why belittle the 40k deaths in Gaza as being only 3% of deaths from other conflicts? That can only be construed as minimising the scale of Israel’s genocidal massacre in Gaza.
Or are you only on here to try and point score against other MB’ers?
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:31 pm
by Max B Gold
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:46 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:39 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:34 pm
Throw in Sudan and it's a rounding error on a spreadsheet.
So, what are you saying?
That the 40k killed in Israel is small fry compared to other conflicts so why bother?
You’re just blowing smoke.
No. That's not what I'm saying.
It was a comment in response to Jeremy Bentham's post that, without Zionism, the region would be relatively peaceful.
Naw it wiznae.
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:35 pm
by Dunners
BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:22 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:11 pm
I have acknowledged Israel's actions previously on this thread.
Then why belittle the 40k deaths in Gaza as being only 3% of deaths from other conflicts? That can only be construed as minimising the scale of Israel’s genocidal massacre in Gaza.
Or are you only on here to try and point score against other MB’ers?
*sighs.
It's not belittling.
1. Bentham suggested that, without Zionism, the region would be a relatively peaceful collection of democratic nation states.
2. I pointed out the evidence to the contrary. Including the scale of deaths in the region, which are not associated with Zionism.
3. You and Max have then intervened, gone into full-on crank mode, and here we are.
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:48 pm
by BoniO
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:35 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:22 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:11 pm
I have acknowledged Israel's actions previously on this thread.
Then why belittle the 40k deaths in Gaza as being only 3% of deaths from other conflicts? That can only be construed as minimising the scale of Israel’s genocidal massacre in Gaza.
Or are you only on here to try and point score against other MB’ers?
*sighs.
It's not belittling.
1. Bentham suggested that, without Zionism, the region would be a relatively peaceful collection of democratic nation states.
2. I pointed out the evidence to the contrary. Including the scale of deaths in the region, which are not associated with Zionism.
3. You and Max have then intervened, gone into full-on crank mode, and here we are.
Sigh all you like but we all know you’re talking bollox.
Referencing the Gaza massacre as only 3% of recent deaths in the region can only be seen as I described above. We both know that.
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:50 pm
by Max B Gold
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:35 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:22 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:11 pm
I have acknowledged Israel's actions previously on this thread.
Then why belittle the 40k deaths in Gaza as being only 3% of deaths from other conflicts? That can only be construed as minimising the scale of Israel’s genocidal massacre in Gaza.
Or are you only on here to try and point score against other MB’ers?
*sighs.
It's not belittling.
1. Bentham suggested that, without Zionism, the region would be a relatively peaceful collection of democratic nation states.
2. I pointed out the evidence to the contrary. Including the scale of deaths in the region, which are not associated with Zionism.
3. You and Max have then intervened, gone into full-on crank mode, and here we are.
I pointed out that the material difference was the Genocide. Whilst the total deaths are far higher in the other parts of the ME none of them arise from a targeted Genocide. That doesn't make me a crank. That's just lazy talk from someone who can't acknowledge reality and is an apologist for Zionism.
Re: Israel
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:52 pm
by Bandy Legs
Hmmm
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:35 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:22 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:11 pm
I have acknowledged Israel's actions previously on this thread.
Then why belittle the 40k deaths in Gaza as being only 3% of deaths from other conflicts? That can only be construed as minimising the scale of Israel’s genocidal massacre in Gaza.
Or are you only on here to try and point score against other MB’ers?
*sighs.
It's not belittling.
1. Bentham suggested that, without Zionism, the region would be a relatively peaceful collection of democratic nation states.
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 12:10 pm
Jeremy Bentham wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 9:45 am
As I understand it, Jews, Muslims and Christians generally lived peacefully alongside each other in Palestine before Zionism took hold and anyway it would be different now as modern democratic states do not allow mob violence (or haven't up till now...) There are currently 118000 Jews living safely and peacefully in Germany, a state that murdered millions of Jews in living memory.
There's a lot to (respectfully) pick apart here.
The region has always been volatile. Whether it be due to the ambitions of Persian or Ottoman rulers through to pan-Arabic conflicts. Sure, you could say the same about most regions, but Zionism has not resulted in anything materially different.
But I think you are assuming that, without Zionism, the emergence of democratic nation states would have been the natural order for the region. I think that's a huge assumption and one which many of the regions opponents of Israel would be quick to dismiss.
2. I pointed out the evidence to the contrary. Including the scale of deaths in the region, which are not associated with Zionism.
3. You and Max have then intervened, gone into full-on crank mode, and here we are.
It looks like you were assuming when you say
" I think"
You are assuming something surely?
I know, It's complicated.
Re: Israel
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2024 6:51 pm
by Jeremy Bentham
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:46 pm
BoniO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:39 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:34 pm
Throw in Sudan and it's a rounding error on a spreadsheet.
So, what are you saying?
That the 40k killed in Israel is small fry compared to other conflicts so why bother?
You’re just blowing smoke.
No. That's not what I'm saying.
It was a comment in response to Jeremy Bentham's post that, without Zionism, the region would be relatively peaceful.
I didn't say that, I said that before Zionism it was relatively peaceful but anyway, in the modern context there's no reason why a democratic state wouldn't be able to exist in the region. Israel and its supporters always bang on about it being "the only democracy in the Middle East", if that was true in reality, there would be peace in the region, it's so obviously the only solution.
Re: Israel
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2024 7:01 pm
by Jeremy Bentham
Oh look, it WAS Israeli propaganda, what a shock.