Yes, anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism, there are many anti-Zionist Jews who are called antisemites by supporters of Israel.
Biden, Schumer, Scholz, Starmer, Lammy, the Dutch king, the Amsterdam mayor, pretty much every person in authority peddled Netanyahu's lie that it was a pogrom.
Sky ran a fairly balanced report on it but then deleted it because "it didn't meet their journalistic standards". When did that ever happen before?
It's nothing to do with Jews but it's very much the verifiable truth that the Israel lobby has massive influence on our institutions and many powerful individuals.
Owen Jones has done a video detailing how the truth about Amsterdam has been inverted to suit the Israeli narrative:
There is no logical reason why Israel is allowed to participate in international sport but Russia isn't.
Re: Israel
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2024 7:58 pm
by faldO
Owen Jones doing what Owen Jones does best- hysteria, outrage and double standards.
14:57 - "Imagine what would have happened if Palestinian or Arab football fans had marched through the streets of Amsterdam chanting "kill the Jews" - they would have been violently arrested, I can imagine in fact the Dutch army being sent in"
He should look closer to home - week in week out there are calls for the state of Israel to be dismantled and Jews to be killed ("globalise the intifada", "from the river to the sea", and worse). Where is his outrage about that?
Re: Israel
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2024 8:11 pm
by Dunners
"There is no logical reason why Israel is allowed to participate in international sport but Russia isn't."
There is a logical reason. You may or may not agree with it, but there's a logic to it.
Russia has launched a military invasion against a nation state which, up until that point, had not acted aggressively to it.
Israel has launched military strikes and an invasion against militants, funded by Iran, who are being granted safe harbour by large swathes of the population in neighbouring states/statelets, and who have absolutely acted aggressively towards it.
You can throw in all your Terrys, Tiffanys, 1948s, land grabs etc, but the two situations are only equivalent to people who are either thick or are deliberately choosing to ignore the differences.
And, fear ye not, accepting those differences doesn't mean you have to agree with Israel's actions. So it's possible to retain your opposition to Israel whilst still not losing your sh*t when Eurovision is on.
Re: Israel
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2024 9:35 pm
by George M
Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 8:11 pm
"There is no logical reason why Israel is allowed to participate in international sport but Russia isn't."
There is a logical reason. You may or may not agree with it, but there's a logic to it.
Russia has launched a military invasion against a nation state which, up until that point, had not acted aggressively to it.
Israel has launched military strikes and an invasion against militants, funded by Iran, who are being granted safe harbour by large swathes of the population in neighbouring states/statelets, and who have absolutely acted aggressively towards it.
You can throw in all your Terrys, Tiffanys, 1948s, land grabs etc, but the two situations are only equivalent to people who are either thick or are deliberately choosing to ignore the differences.
And, fear ye not, accepting those differences doesn't mean you have to agree with Israel's actions. So it's possible to retain your opposition to Israel whilst still not losing your sh*t when Eurovision is on.
Do the two have to be compared though. Is committing genocide, flouting international laws of engagement , illegal land grabs , bombing schools and hospitals not enough to warrant some form of sanction ?
Re: Israel
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2024 9:36 pm
by George M
At least as a gesture we could sling them out of Eurovision. Would anyone notice?
Jeremy Bentham wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 9:26 am
Government authorities and legacy media have been colonised by the Zionists and when they parrot Israeli government talking points, the alarm bells should ring. The good thing is, we have social media as a counterbalance and more and more people are waking up to the lies propagated by their "leaders".
Strangely, I am in agreement with a lot of what you say. But a lot of this is starting to make me feel uncomfortable. Someone saying that Israelis should be banned for everywhere (whilst refusing to actually type the word Israeli), the trope of the Jews owning/controlling the media…
We must separate anti Zionism with anti semintism (I’m convinced a load of this hate is due to Israel and supporters in the west trying to conflate the top to support Israel’s current regimes awful ideology )
It's true, there is a counter-balance on social media - you won't see this video on BBC or Sky.... It's clear the pogrom targeting Jews in Amsterdam was pre-meditated (WhatsApp messages have been seized by the Dutch police), exacerbated by police inaction.
What's a bit weird, & I assume borne of laziness, is people linking tweets by Owen Jones, Medhi Hassan, Esheru etc. They're all racists, so if they want a watertight argument they're gonna need to come up with more sophisticated commentators than that lot. I mean, why post links to people who always seek to justify attacks on Jews & can never see them as innocent?
Not wanting to speak for Jewish O's fans, but anti-zionism is antisemitic. Notwithstanding the fact around 85% of diaspora Jews are Zionists, people who use 'the term Zionist/Zionism perjoratively are fundamentally racist. Anti-Zionism is only a legitimate & reasonable position to take if someone doesn't believe in the concept of the Nation State at all. To suggest the Jews are not entitled to self-determination, but the French, Italians, Swedes etc are, is a racist position.
Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 8:11 pm
"There is no logical reason why Israel is allowed to participate in international sport but Russia isn't."
There is a logical reason. You may or may not agree with it, but there's a logic to it.
Russia has launched a military invasion against a nation state which, up until that point, had not acted aggressively to it.
Israel has launched military strikes and an invasion against militants, funded by Iran, who are being granted safe harbour by large swathes of the population in neighbouring states/statelets, and who have absolutely acted aggressively towards it.
You can throw in all your Terrys, Tiffanys, 1948s, land grabs etc, but the two situations are only equivalent to people who are either thick or are deliberately choosing to ignore the differences.
And, fear ye not, accepting those differences doesn't mean you have to agree with Israel's actions. So it's possible to retain your opposition to Israel whilst still not losing your sh*t when Eurovision is on.
Do the two have to be compared though. Is committing genocide, flouting international laws of engagement , illegal land grabs , bombing schools and hospitals not enough to warrant some form of sanction ?
Maybe, maybe not. But that's not relevant to the point that there is a logical reason why the international response to Israel is different to Russia.
Re: Israel
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 8:49 am
by Max B Gold
Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 8:11 pm
"There is no logical reason why Israel is allowed to participate in international sport but Russia isn't."
There is a logical reason. You may or may not agree with it, but there's a logic to it.
Russia has launched a military invasion against a nation state which, up until that point, had not acted aggressively to it.
Israel has launched military strikes and an invasion against militants, funded by Iran, who are being granted safe harbour by large swathes of the population in neighbouring states/statelets, and who have absolutely acted aggressively towards it.
You can throw in all your Terrys, Tiffanys, 1948s, land grabs etc, but the two situations are only equivalent to people who are either thick or are deliberately choosing to ignore the differences.
And, fear ye not, accepting those differences doesn't mean you have to agree with Israel's actions. So it's possible to retain your opposition to Israel whilst still not losing your sh*t when Eurovision is on.
It isn't a logical reason when it is twisted beyond all recognition.
Jeremy Bentham wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 9:26 am
Government authorities and legacy media have been colonised by the Zionists and when they parrot Israeli government talking points, the alarm bells should ring. The good thing is, we have social media as a counterbalance and more and more people are waking up to the lies propagated by their "leaders".
Strangely, I am in agreement with a lot of what you say. But a lot of this is starting to make me feel uncomfortable. Someone saying that Israelis should be banned for everywhere (whilst refusing to actually type the word Israeli), the trope of the Jews owning/controlling the media…
We must separate anti Zionism with anti semintism (I’m convinced a load of this hate is due to Israel and supporters in the west trying to conflate the top to support Israel’s current regimes awful ideology )
It's true, there is a counter-balance on social media - you won't see this video on BBC or Sky.... It's clear the pogrom targeting Jews in Amsterdam was pre-meditated (WhatsApp messages have been seized by the Dutch police), exacerbated by police inaction.
What's a bit weird, & I assume borne of laziness, is people linking tweets by Owen Jones, Medhi Hassan, Esheru etc. They're all racists, so if they want a watertight argument they're gonna need to come up with more sophisticated commentators than that lot. I mean, why post links to people who always seek to justify attacks on Jews & can never see them as innocent?
Not wanting to speak for Jewish O's fans, but anti-zionism is antisemitic. Notwithstanding the fact around 85% of diaspora Jews are Zionists, people who use 'the term Zionist/Zionism perjoratively are fundamentally racist. Anti-Zionism is only a legitimate & reasonable position to take if someone doesn't believe in the concept of the Nation State at all. To suggest the Jews are not entitled to self-determination, but the French, Italians, Swedes etc are, is a racist position.
I’m a Jew and I respectfully disagree. I dislike the concept of a race based state, especially a right wing nationalist state and their actions are disgusting. They don’t represent me - but unfortunately the fact that people are so keen to conflate Judaism and Zionism, they actually do represent me and therefore I’m now more likely to be the victim of an anti-Semitic attack because of their illegal actions.
Jews can determine what they like. But it shouldn’t come at the cost of another people.
At the same time I can be uncomfortable with Jews being attacked in Europe and Twitter accounts being shared on here saying that Israelis shouldn’t be allowed in certain places
It's true, there is a counter-balance on social media - you won't see this video on BBC or Sky.... It's clear the pogrom targeting Jews in Amsterdam was pre-meditated (WhatsApp messages have been seized by the Dutch police), exacerbated by police inaction.
What's a bit weird, & I assume borne of laziness, is people linking tweets by Owen Jones, Medhi Hassan, Esheru etc. They're all racists, so if they want a watertight argument they're gonna need to come up with more sophisticated commentators than that lot. I mean, why post links to people who always seek to justify attacks on Jews & can never see them as innocent?
Not wanting to speak for Jewish O's fans, but anti-zionism is antisemitic. Notwithstanding the fact around 85% of diaspora Jews are Zionists, people who use 'the term Zionist/Zionism perjoratively are fundamentally racist. Anti-Zionism is only a legitimate & reasonable position to take if someone doesn't believe in the concept of the Nation State at all. To suggest the Jews are not entitled to self-determination, but the French, Italians, Swedes etc are, is a racist position.
I’m a Jew and I respectfully disagree. I dislike the concept of a race based state, especially a right wing nationalist state and their actions are disgusting. They don’t represent me - but unfortunately the fact that people are so keen to conflate Judaism and Zionism, they actually do represent me and therefore I’m now more likely to be the victim of an anti-Semitic attack because of their illegal actions.
Jews can determine what they like. But it shouldn’t come at the cost of another people.
At the same time I can be uncomfortable with Jews being attacked in Europe and Twitter accounts being shared on here saying that Israelis shouldn’t be allowed in certain places
It’s a shame more Jews don’t speak out as you have done. Perhaps they do and we don’t hear of it. It’s good to have your take on the situation
Re: Israel
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 10:57 am
by StillSpike
Can you guys please sort out your reply-with-quote work? (or is this some sort of in-joke?). I can't tell who's saying what.
Re: Israel
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 10:59 am
by Dunners
StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 10:57 am
Can you guys please sort out your reply-with-quote work? (or is this some sort of in-joke?). I can't tell who's saying what.
Here Here!
Re: Israel
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 11:05 am
by Rich Tea Wellin
StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 10:57 am
Can you guys please sort out your reply-with-quote work? (or is this some sort of in-joke?). I can't tell who's saying what.
Actually spent 5 mins trying to sort it but couldn’t do it and figured I was wasting time on formatting. But agree
StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 10:57 am
Can you guys please sort out your reply-with-quote work? (or is this some sort of in-joke?). I can't tell who's saying what.
Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 2:42 pm
I’m a Jew and I respectfully disagree. I dislike the concept of a race based state, especially a right wing nationalist state and their actions are disgusting. They don’t represent me - but unfortunately the fact that people are so keen to conflate Judaism and Zionism, they actually do represent me and therefore I’m now more likely to be the victim of an anti-Semitic attack because of their illegal actions.
Jews can determine what they like. But it shouldn’t come at the cost of another people.
At the same time I can be uncomfortable with Jews being attacked in Europe and Twitter accounts being shared on here saying that Israelis shouldn’t be allowed in certain places
It's disingenuous to assert Israel is a race-based state. It's based on Jewish ethnicity, in the same way as Ireland, Italy, China, India etc are rooted in ethnicity. That's not to say any Nation State is homogeneous (Israel has a 20% Arab population), but it would obviously be ridiculous for any Nation State to allow it's ethnic population to become in a minority within it.
Regarding conflating Judaism & Zionism, I'm not really sure what you mean. Judaism is a religion which people can freely join, leave, criticise & ridicule as with all religions (apart from Catholicism which is clearly the best). Zionism, as previously stated is the belief in Jewish self-determination. The fact remains around 85% of the Jewish diaspora are Zionists. You may be in the 15% & of course you're entitled to your opinion, even if it's a minority view.
Your implication that Israel's approach to the Gaza war puts you at greater risk as a Jew in the UK, is a reflection of the Islamist & far-left racist alliance. Don't forget they were out celebrating the Hamas pogrom on 7/10. Holding you responsible for Israel's actions is textbook antisemitism, as is holding Israel to higher standards than other Nations or singling Israel out for opprobrium whilst ignoring Syria, Sudan etc...
Re: Israel
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 3:25 pm
by George M
What is this pogrom tripe you and many others are spouting. On the 7th October there was a terrorist attack. That’s it. They were not exterminating everyone in Israel. And whilst on the subject can the Palestinians use the same term. That’s what Israel has set out to do to them.
It’s a serious question rather than an accusation
Re: Israel
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:18 pm
by faldO
George M wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 3:25 pm
What is this pogrom tripe you and many others are spouting. On the 7th October there was a terrorist attack. That’s it. They were not exterminating everyone in Israel. And whilst on the subject can the Palestinians use the same term. That’s what Israel has set out to do to them.
It’s a serious question rather than an accusation
"Pogrom tripe?" Hamas leaders said they wanted to repeat Oct 7th "over and over". If they had the means to kill everyone in Israel they would.
Why not spend some time looking into what a pogrom is from a historical perspective. It might help you understand what is going on.
And there is a certain irony in claiming that Oct 7th was simply a terrorist attack, nothing more, whilst at the same time claiming at every opportunity that Israel is committing genocide.
George M wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 3:25 pm
What is this pogrom tripe you and many others are spouting. On the 7th October there was a terrorist attack. That’s it. They were not exterminating everyone in Israel. And whilst on the subject can the Palestinians use the same term. That’s what Israel has set out to do to them.
It’s a serious question rather than an accusation
"Pogrom tripe?" Hamas leaders said they wanted to repeat Oct 7th "over and over". If they had the means to kill everyone in Israel they would.
Why not spend some time looking into what a pogrom is from a historical perspective. It might help you understand what is going on.
And there is a certain irony in claiming that Oct 7th was simply a terrorist attack, nothing more, whilst at the same time claiming at every opportunity that Israel is committing genocide.
What they said or say and what they do or did are not the same are they. They don’t have the means to do it anyway so let’s not get carried away. I know what a pogrom is and its historical perspective and I am suggesting perspective is what you need in this instance.
Oct 7th was a terrorist attack and Israel is committing genocide.
George M wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 3:25 pm
What is this pogrom tripe you and many others are spouting. On the 7th October there was a terrorist attack. That’s it. They were not exterminating everyone in Israel. And whilst on the subject can the Palestinians use the same term. That’s what Israel has set out to do to them.
It’s a serious question rather than an accusation
"Pogrom tripe?" Hamas leaders said they wanted to repeat Oct 7th "over and over". If they had the means to kill everyone in Israel they would.
Why not spend some time looking into what a pogrom is from a historical perspective. It might help you understand what is going on.
And there is a certain irony in claiming that Oct 7th was simply a terrorist attack, nothing more, whilst at the same time claiming at every opportunity that Israel is committing genocide.
What they said or say and what they do or did are not the same are they. They don’t have the means to do it anyway so let’s not get carried away. I know what a pogrom is and its historical perspective and I am suggesting perspective is what you need in this instance.
Oct 7th was a terrorist attack and Israel is committing genocide.
Don't want to appear condescending, but I really do think you need to go away and educate yourself on this because you're just wasting people's time having to correct you...
October 7th was a pogrom, not a terrorist attack. A pogrom is a violent mob riot with the aim of massacring/physically harming/expelling a specific ethnic/religious group, typically Jews. Hence 7/10, Amsterdam etc..
A terrorist attack is the use/threat of violence against the general public/property to intimidate the public (i.e not a specific ethnicity or racial group), or influence a Government, with the aim of advancing a political/ideological cause. Hence 9/11, Ariana Grande concert etc..
Re: Israel
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:15 pm
by George M
Thanks for that. No one will be surprised you didn’t furnish us with your definition of genocide. Spin the facts to support the narrative.
It's true, there is a counter-balance on social media - you won't see this video on BBC or Sky.... It's clear the pogrom targeting Jews in Amsterdam was pre-meditated (WhatsApp messages have been seized by the Dutch police), exacerbated by police inaction.
What's a bit weird, & I assume borne of laziness, is people linking tweets by Owen Jones, Medhi Hassan, Esheru etc. They're all racists, so if they want a watertight argument they're gonna need to come up with more sophisticated commentators than that lot. I mean, why post links to people who always seek to justify attacks on Jews & can never see them as innocent?
Not wanting to speak for Jewish O's fans, but anti-zionism is antisemitic. Notwithstanding the fact around 85% of diaspora Jews are Zionists, people who use 'the term Zionist/Zionism perjoratively are fundamentally racist. Anti-Zionism is only a legitimate & reasonable position to take if someone doesn't believe in the concept of the Nation State at all. To suggest the Jews are not entitled to self-determination, but the French, Italians, Swedes etc are, is a racist position.
I’m a Jew and I respectfully disagree. I dislike the concept of a race based state, especially a right wing nationalist state and their actions are disgusting. They don’t represent me - but unfortunately the fact that people are so keen to conflate Judaism and Zionism, they actually do represent me and therefore I’m now more likely to be the victim of an anti-Semitic attack because of their illegal actions.
Jews can determine what they like. But it shouldn’t come at the cost of another people.
At the same time I can be uncomfortable with Jews being attacked in Europe and Twitter accounts being shared on here saying that Israelis shouldn’t be allowed in certain places
I’m a Jew and I respectfully disagree. I dislike the concept of a race based state, especially a right wing nationalist state and their actions are disgusting. They don’t represent me - but unfortunately the fact that people are so keen to conflate Judaism and Zionism, they actually do represent me and therefore I’m now more likely to be the victim of an anti-Semitic attack because of their illegal actions.
Jews can determine what they like. But it shouldn’t come at the cost of another people.
At the same time I can be uncomfortable with Jews being attacked in Europe and Twitter accounts being shared on here saying that Israelis shouldn’t be allowed in certain places
100%
But not really 100% as you’ve not bolded the key final part. Based on your allusions to Zionist-controlled media and the Israel lobby, you’re a daft antisemite who thinks Zionism is Netanyahu. Zionism is the right to self determination, something most races and ethnicities outside of the MENA region and Latin America have. Being anti-Zionist would mean removing all states with a religious element so I assume you feel as strongly about Saudi Arabia, the Vatican and the UK?
I’m a Jew and I respectfully disagree. I dislike the concept of a race based state, especially a right wing nationalist state and their actions are disgusting. They don’t represent me - but unfortunately the fact that people are so keen to conflate Judaism and Zionism, they actually do represent me and therefore I’m now more likely to be the victim of an anti-Semitic attack because of their illegal actions.
Jews can determine what they like. But it shouldn’t come at the cost of another people.
At the same time I can be uncomfortable with Jews being attacked in Europe and Twitter accounts being shared on here saying that Israelis shouldn’t be allowed in certain places
