Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:43 am
When people experience more of those conditions and see the money disappear into the same old pockets they will soon change their tune.

I think the word "soon" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. It's been going on for years - decades, really - and has ramped up and up over the last few years - and there's still not a peep out of "the people". They love it - last night being a case in point.

Breaks my Heart but Labour is finished.
Peolple like me left because of reasons after a long hard think.
This country got what it wanted, Brexit and a fun Loveable Prime Minister.
Its never going to change now so buckle down people and enjoy the ride.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:49 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:43 am
When people experience more of those conditions and see the money disappear into the same old pockets they will soon change their tune.

I think the word "soon" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. It's been going on for years - decades, really - and has ramped up and up over the last few years - and there's still not a peep out of "the people". They love it - last night being a case in point.

The people didn't endorse it last night. The Tory vote was not spectacular in terms of their share of those eligible to vote.

By and large they gave Labour a kicking for not supporting Brexit by not coming out or voting for one of the other non Tory parties.

When I say soon I don't mean that literally. Along with the realisation that corruption and exploitation are endemic within their experiences their needs to be political organisation and education. Much in the way it happened in an earlier stage of capitalism where workers self organised. It's a big project and takes time.

Seats last contested in 2017 there is a 4 point Swing to the Tories in working-class areas.Conversely there has been a 4 point swing to Labour in middle class areas

Seats contested in 2016, 12 point Swing to the Tories in the most working class areas

The party of accountants and students

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 11:01 am Seats last contested in 2017 there is a 4 point Swing to the Tories in working-class areas.Conversely there has been a 4 point swing to Labour in middle class areas

Seats contested in 2016, 12 point Swing to the Tories in the most working class areas

The party of accountants and students

You're thinking of the SWP.

How does this swing thing work if a party's previous voters don't turn out at the current elections?

Would that in any way impact on the percentages of swing?

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 11:09 am

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 11:01 am Seats last contested in 2017 there is a 4 point Swing to the Tories in working-class areas.Conversely there has been a 4 point swing to Labour in middle class areas

Seats contested in 2016, 12 point Swing to the Tories in the most working class areas

The party of accountants and students

You're thinking of the SWP.

How does this swing thing work if a party's previous voters don't turn out at the current elections?

Would that in any way impact on the percentages of swing?

You don't seem to understand what a Swing is

It's not overall votes if that helps you.

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 11:23 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 11:09 am

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 11:01 am Seats last contested in 2017 there is a 4 point Swing to the Tories in working-class areas.Conversely there has been a 4 point swing to Labour in middle class areas

Seats contested in 2016, 12 point Swing to the Tories in the most working class areas

The party of accountants and students

You're thinking of the SWP.

How does this swing thing work if a party's previous voters don't turn out at the current elections?

Would that in any way impact on the percentages of swing?

You don't seem to understand what a Swing is

It's not overall votes if that helps you.

I didn't say I did. I asked for clarification on the impact on the swing if one party's loyal voters don't turn out.

You didn't or couldn't answer the question and then made it about me Not understanding something I haven't looked into. So now can you answer the question as best you can please.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 11:29 am

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 11:23 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 11:09 am

You're thinking of the SWP.

How does this swing thing work if a party's previous voters don't turn out at the current elections?

Would that in any way impact on the percentages of swing?

You don't seem to understand what a Swing is

It's not overall votes if that helps you.

I didn't say I did. I asked for clarification on the impact on the swing if one party's loyal voters don't turn out.

You didn't or couldn't answer the question and then made it about me Not understanding something I haven't looked into. So now can you answer the question as best you can please.

Can't be arsed, if you don't want to remain thick Google it.

Googled it. I win.

Bluecap wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:52 am Breaks my Heart but Labour is finished.
Peolple like me left because of reasons after a long hard think.
This country got what it wanted, Brexit and a fun Loveable Prime Minister.
Its never going to change now so buckle down people and enjoy the ride.

Labour is not finished. Not at all.

The Party does need to have a massive re-think on its approach. All this Tory sleeve, jobs for the boys, help for mates stuff is past its sell by date. This sort of stuff goes on in all parties to a degree. Everybody knows that.

The latest wallpaper-gate story. Johnson got it right, “you worry about wallpaper, I’ll worry about Covid and the Economy”. Spot on. Sure we all know the underlying issues but for goodness sake, my guess, people are more concerned about their health and their jobs not the sodding price of a roll of wallpaper.

Negative approach. Let’s not focus on the tax situation of Dyson workers coming to the U.K. to help build ventilators!

I want to know how the Labour Party will make life better, what would they do to improve the NHS, the economy, our national security. And create proposals that cut the mustard when held up to financial scrutiny. Tough for Starmer with the focus on Covid, even more difficult given the U.K. world leading vaccination program that is saving lives. But Starmer needs to start and needs to become aggressive on things that matter to the majority of votes.

And that’s not the price of a roll of wallpaper and who is paying for it.

Corruption is only a matter of degree they all do it. Seriously? Do you think the Tories have pushed the envelope to bursting? Should the police investigate?

I see Johnson's brother now has a job at Dyson. Was it Dyson workers coming to the UK and their tax position that was to be fixed or was it a bit closer to home.

How many ventilators did they deliver to the NHS?

You're right that SirKeith got the wallpaper message wrong. Focusing on the cost of it detracted from the real issue which was about honesty and integrity in govt office.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 12:24 pm Googled it. I win.

Proud of you

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 12:51 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 12:24 pm Googled it. I win.

Proud of you

To be fair I already knew the answer to the question before I asked it. But you knew that.

It was interesting to note your misuse of statistics to promote a false premise. I thought you had more integrity than that.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 1:01 pm

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 12:51 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 12:24 pm Googled it. I win.

Proud of you

To be fair I already knew the answer to the question before I asked it. But you knew that.

It was interesting to note your misuse of statistics to promote a false premise. I thought you had more integrity than that.

I was only quoting Sir John Curtice whose Psephology skills I rate higher than yours, sorry

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 12:44 pm Corruption is only a matter of degree they all do it. Seriously? Do you think the Tories have pushed the envelope to bursting? Should the police investigate?

I see Johnson's brother now has a job at Dyson. Was it Dyson workers coming to the UK and their tax position that was to be fixed or was it a bit closer to home.

How many ventilators did they deliver to the NHS?

You're right that SirKeith got the wallpaper message wrong. Focusing on the cost of it detracted from the real issue which was about honesty and integrity in govt office.

Agree Max. And I do believe there are investigations going on with regard to Government contracts and financing. Absolutely the right thing to do irrespective of the political party. Honesty and integrity in public office is important and something both major parties have had issues with. I don’t see this as a party political issue.

But where I differ is trying to make this the cornerstone of Labour policy. For sure raise questions, absolutely give BoJo a tough time. But time to move on to the more positive aspects of what a Labour Government have to offer. Right now I haven’t a clue what they stand for and what change they would introduce. OK, don’t expect detailed stuff so far away from an election. But come on! Time for Starmer to go on the front foot with some policy outline ideas.

And policies need to be commensurate with today’s electorate. White/Blue collar workers, with mortgages, cars, decent standard of living. Policies that will get a party elected. Once in power, working to improve the lot of the less fortunate too. But you need to get elected first.

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 1:04 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 1:01 pm

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 12:51 pm

Proud of you

To be fair I already knew the answer to the question before I asked it. But you knew that.

It was interesting to note your misuse of statistics to promote a false premise. I thought you had more integrity than that.

I was only quoting Sir John Curtice whose Psephology skills I rate higher than yours, sorry

You shouldn't. He gets it bang wrong a lot.

Greens should consider making a bid for Jeremy Corbyn

Could be a season changing signing

all the labour representatives keep on saying we have to change
change what green ideas or switch to Brexit.
what can they change I am very keen to no.

Andy Burnham 7/1 next Labour leader looks tempting

greyhound wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:58 pm all the labour representatives keep on saying we have to change
change what green ideas or switch to Brexit.
what can they change I am very keen to no.

They already have, to a degree. Labour MP, Shadow Minister, just said on TV that at the last election, people on the doorstep were hostile to Labour. That now is not the case according to her. They are more open to dialogue. That is a major step forward. Labour are no longer the joke, they were. Change of Leader!

What they need to do now is to sell what the party is all about to the general public. Explain what they stand for, their beliefs. It’s a start if people are listening. They just need to talk louder and to the people who matter. That is not Momentum or the union Leaders. Or Corbyn who today is offering advice! Jeez.

The risk is another round of in-fighting. Give Starmer a chance without being hamstrung by people in his own party. The fight is out there, not within. When people grow up to that fact, the Labour Party will genuinely move forward.

greyhound wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:58 pm all the labour representatives keep on saying we have to change
change what green ideas or switch to Brexit.
what can they change I am very keen to no.

Maybe win a general election for a 5 year term ,
But then have 2 further elections in the next 4 years
because your party really cant agree on its policy or leader or
Where it wants to go
2015 = Dave
2017 = Tressamae
2019 = Bodge
Just creates a belief that 1 party is a dominant force
But really shows how " the people " can be so easily
Manipulated & conned in a very short space of time .

Dohnut wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 4:19 pm

greyhound wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:58 pm all the labour representatives keep on saying we have to change
change what green ideas or switch to Brexit.
what can they change I am very keen to no.

They already have, to a degree. Labour MP, Shadow Minister, just said on TV that at the last election, people on the doorstep were hostile to Labour. That now is not the case according to her. They are more open to dialogue.

I'm going to have to stop you there and ask if this MP might be lying to you.

If they are less hostile to Labour now why did an "unpopular" Corbyn led party win Hartlepool twice without the cackfest, shlt show of a corrupt Tory government killing people.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 5:14 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 4:19 pm

greyhound wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:58 pm all the labour representatives keep on saying we have to change
change what green ideas or switch to Brexit.
what can they change I am very keen to no.

They already have, to a degree. Labour MP, Shadow Minister, just said on TV that at the last election, people on the doorstep were hostile to Labour. That now is not the case according to her. They are more open to dialogue.

I'm going to have to stop you there and ask if this MP might be lying to you.

If they are less hostile to Labour now why did an "unpopular" Corbyn led party win Hartlepool twice without the cackfest, shlt show of a corrupt Tory government killing people.

I have no idea if the person was lying. Brigit Phillipson was the lady in question. Are you suggesting A Labour Shadow Minister would tell porkies. Possibly. Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe she is just trying to stave off the inevitable onslaught her boss was about to face and wants to hang on should a reshuffle happen. Also possible.

A Tory guy said the reason was the people of Hartlepool could see Tory investment in other Red Wall constituencies, as per Boris promise, and thought “I’ll have some of that”. Not too sure buying votes with tax payer money is any better. Or am I just being cynical.

Welsh Labour had a decent Senedd election: vote share held up and they retain the same number of seats. But then “lefty”leader Drakeford has been perceived to have had “good” Covid mgmt, and their policies (yeah, they have some and aren’t afraid to admit it) are pretty popular.

Tories mopped up the UKIP seats (maybe the fragmented frothers standing confused the voters), Plaid stood still, Greens didn’t pick up enough to make a breakthrough, and the Libs vote took a bashing.

Note also that decent Municipal Socialism councils that actually seem to achieve things locally like Preston and Salford did well. Whereas ineffectual Labour centrists in places like the North East, who have been taking their electorates votes for granted for too long in some places, lost ground due to supporters apathy (not bothering to turn out and vote), whilst the Tories made gains by picking up the UKIP frothers votes and energising their own base - as well as the possibility of additional Red Wall spending being extended to their Councils.