Independent Leyton Orient Forum

faldO wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 10:39 am 16 years to the day since the last Labour general election victory. The 1997 win was the best night of politics I have experienced - the end of 4 successive Thatcherite governments and real hope and optimism for the future.

How times have changed. Sixteen years on who would have thought Labour could possibly mess things up so badly and get stuffed in a seat like Hartlepool, as looks set to happen tomorrow.

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 11:45 am Nobody knows what the Labour Party stands for any more. It's just lots of in-fighting and the rabid egotism of key players. Total feckin' mess. Such a shame.

Whereas the Tory Party is at least a constant, greed, corruption, selfishness, jobs for the boys, defend the privileged, screw the NHS etc et-bloody-cetera. Hurrah!

Dohnut wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:18 am

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 11:45 am Nobody knows what the Labour Party stands for any more. It's just lots of in-fighting and the rabid egotism of key players. Total feckin' mess. Such a shame.

Whereas the Tory Party is at least a constant, greed, corruption, selfishness, jobs for the boys, defend the privileged, screw the NHS etc et-bloody-cetera. Hurrah!

So you have just accused the people of Hartlepool of voting for greed, corruption, jobs for the boys, defenders of privilege, screw the NHS, etc. Not very nice. And of course not true. Or at least know crap is not confined to one party.

Until Labour get their heads out of their arses, kick out all these hysterical mantras and focus on policy, policy people can understand, relate to, believe in, support, they will be slow to recover. This is a bad day for Starmer, but we all knew the mess of the last leader would take some time to fix. And so it is proving. Just has Starmer himself made clear. He ain’t stupid.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:55 am

Dohnut wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:18 am

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 11:45 am Nobody knows what the Labour Party stands for any more. It's just lots of in-fighting and the rabid egotism of key players. Total feckin' mess. Such a shame.

Whereas the Tory Party is at least a constant, greed, corruption, selfishness, jobs for the boys, defend the privileged, screw the NHS etc et-bloody-cetera. Hurrah!

So you have just accused the people of Hartlepool of voting for greed, corruption, jobs for the boys, defenders of privilege, screw the NHS, etc. Not very nice. And of course not true. Or at least know crap is not confined to one party.

Until Labour get their heads out of their arses, kick out all these hysterical mantras and focus on policy, policy people can understand, relate to, believe in, support, they will be slow to recover. This is a bad day for Starmer, but we all knew the mess of the last leader would take some time to fix. And so it is proving. Just has Starmer himself made clear. He ain’t stupid.

Have you just apportioned this result to Corbyn? I wonder how many more years people like you will be using that excuse? To be fair, you got the best part of 10 years out of blaming Tory austerity on Brown, so there’s mileage in this yet I guess.

Of course The People of Hartlepool didn’t vote for greed and corruption and cronyism and selling off of the NHS. They voted for Getting Brexit Done.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:18 am

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 11:45 am Nobody knows what the Labour Party stands for any more. It's just lots of in-fighting and the rabid egotism of key players. Total feckin' mess. Such a shame.

Whereas the Tory Party is at least a constant, greed, corruption, selfishness, jobs for the boys, defend the privileged, screw the NHS etc et-bloody-cetera. Hurrah!

So you have just accused the people of Hartlepool of voting for greed, corruption, jobs for the boys, defenders of privilege, screw the NHS, etc. Not very nice. And of course not true. Or at least know crap is not confined to one party.

Until Labour get their heads out of their arses, kick out all these hysterical mantras and focus on policy, policy people can understand, relate to, believe in, support, they will be slow to recover. This is a bad day for Starmer, but we all knew the mess of the last leader would take some time to fix. And so it is proving. Just has Starmer himself made clear. He ain’t stupid.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:55 am

Dohnut wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:18 am

BoniO wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 11:45 am Nobody knows what the Labour Party stands for any more. It's just lots of in-fighting and the rabid egotism of key players. Total feckin' mess. Such a shame.

Whereas the Tory Party is at least a constant, greed, corruption, selfishness, jobs for the boys, defend the privileged, screw the NHS etc et-bloody-cetera. Hurrah!

So you have just accused the people of Hartlepool of voting for greed, corruption, jobs for the boys, defenders of privilege, screw the NHS, etc. Not very nice. And of course not true. Or at least know crap is not confined to one party.

Until Labour get their heads out of their arses, kick out all these hysterical mantras and focus on policy, policy people can understand, relate to, believe in, support, they will be slow to recover. This is a bad day for Starmer, but we all knew the mess of the last leader would take some time to fix. And so it is proving. Just has Starmer himself made clear. He ain’t stupid.

Have you just apportioned this result to Corbyn? I wonder how many more years people like you will be using that excuse? To be fair, you got the best part of 10 years out of blaming Tory austerity on Brown, so there’s mileage in this yet I guess.

Of course The People of Hartlepool didn’t vote for greed and corruption and cronyism and selling off of the NHS. They voted for Getting Brexit Done.

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:04 am Labour is the party of middle class accountants and students from the South East.

They claim to care about the working classes but in reality sneer and belittle them and find some of the Non woke group think things a lot of them as well as the wider country believe to be unconscionable.

With the Tories placing their tanks on Labour's lawn economically while still maintaining a social small c conservatism socially - One that doesn't belive there are 50 genders or someone should lose their job for calling someone with a penis and a beard, Sir. Labour are fuc*Ed.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:16 am

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:04 am Labour is the party of middle class accountants and students from the South East.

They claim to care about the working classes but in reality sneer and belittle them and find some of the Non woke group think things a lot of them as well as the wider country believe to be unconscionable.

With the Tories placing their tanks on Labour's lawn economically while still maintaining a social small c conservatism socially - One that doesn't belive there are 50 genders or someone should lose their job for calling someone with a penis and a beard, Sir. Labour are fuc*Ed.

Non of this is even remotely right.

The Hartlepool result suggests that a large section of the traditional Labour vote either went elsewhere or didn't vote. There was nothing inspiring to vote for. No policies. No hope.

Your over emphasis on the culture war is wrong. It's just something that is filling the political vacuum caused by a divided Labour Party with a poor, incompetent leader.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:10 am I guess if you're a voter in Hartlepool, you'll be looking at the Tees valley bringing in investment, newly elected Tory MPs in neighbouring constituencies bringing in cash, and thinking why not have a go. I do sort of get it. Tories are spending a load of money right now and they aren't having to make any difficult decisions whilst we're still in the health and economic crisis of the pandemic.

But I can't see how they square the circle in the longer term between being fiscally conservative and keeping voters on board who live in places decimated by austerity. At some point they will begin to make unpopular decisions again. Labour have to have an alternative at that point.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:16 am

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:04 am Labour is the party of middle class accountants and students from the South East.

They claim to care about the working classes but in reality sneer and belittle them and find some of the Non woke group think things a lot of them as well as the wider country believe to be unconscionable.

With the Tories placing their tanks on Labour's lawn economically while still maintaining a social small c conservatism socially - One that doesn't belive there are 50 genders or someone should lose their job for calling someone with a penis and a beard, Sir. Labour are fuc*Ed.

Non of this is even remotely right.

The Hartlepool result suggests that a large section of the traditional Labour vote either went elsewhere or didn't vote. There was nothing inspiring to vote for. No policies. No hope.

Your over emphasis on the culture war is wrong. It's just something that is filling the political vacuum caused by a divided Labour Party with a poor, incompetent leader.

Dunners wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:32 am Starmer was always going to struggle to overcome his metropolitan-liberal-remainer-elite image, because that's exactly what he is. The Labour party just currently does not have the personnel that will 'get it' and have the ability to connect with target voters. I can't see that changing any time soon either.

The problem for the country is that Labour are now completely irrelevant, but under our current system remain too big to allow a better alternative to emerge.

Admin wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:27 am

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:10 am I guess if you're a voter in Hartlepool, you'll be looking at the Tees valley bringing in investment, newly elected Tory MPs in neighbouring constituencies bringing in cash, and thinking why not have a go. I do sort of get it. Tories are spending a load of money right now and they aren't having to make any difficult decisions whilst we're still in the health and economic crisis of the pandemic.

But I can't see how they square the circle in the longer term between being fiscally conservative and keeping voters on board who live in places decimated by austerity. At some point they will begin to make unpopular decisions again. Labour have to have an alternative at that point.

The first point here can't be underestimated - it'll also be repeated elsewhere where the Tories broke through the "Red Wall". The remaining labour constituencies are going to be under this type of pressure at the next election.

Starmer's admittedly had a difficult gig in being leader of the opposition during the pandemic but I still feel he's failed to really lay a serious glove on Johnson et al for all of their failings and corruption. Sort of goes hand in glove with the perceived lack of identity generally and a clear set of policies (alternative or otherwise).

The sad thing is this result is likely to lead to just more infighting between the extremes on either side of the party. Both sides are still intent on vilifying / exonerating Saint Jeremy rather than recognising his irrelevance now. For a supposed unity candidate, for me it's where Starmer's really failed in being unable to bring either side of the party closer together. Reverting to the Blair format by consulting Mandelson etc just looks like what it is - an inability to forge a new route with policies.

Personally, I don't see Labour recovering for 10+ years (if at all). I just don't see how it can be reconciled to attracting votes from the so called liberal elite in major cities and disgruntled ex union members / blue collar workforce in Hartlepool and the like. Certainly can't see them in sole power under FPTP any time this decade.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:39 am

Dunners wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 10:32 am Starmer was always going to struggle to overcome his metropolitan-liberal-remainer-elite image, because that's exactly what he is. The Labour party just currently does not have the personnel that will 'get it' and have the ability to connect with target voters. I can't see that changing any time soon either.

The problem for the country is that Labour are now completely irrelevant, but under our current system remain too big to allow a better alternative to emerge.

Feel like a broken record in saying this but Nandy was warning about exactly this throughout the leadership campaign. She is from and represents one of these areas, she was very clear about the dangers of being perceived as the remain party and she was onto the need to articulate something for those towns Labour is now losing.