Labour Watch

[faldO]

16 years to the day since the last Labour general election victory. The 1997 win was the best night of politics I have experienced - the end of 4 successive Thatcherite governments and real hope and optimism for the future.

How times have changed. Sixteen years on who would have thought Labour could possibly mess things up so badly and get stuffed in a seat like Hartlepool, as looks set to happen tomorrow.

[Max B Gold]

16 years to the day since the last Labour general election victory. The 1997 win was the best night of politics I have experienced - the end of 4 successive Thatcherite governments and real hope and optimism for the future.

How times have changed. Sixteen years on who would have thought Labour could possibly mess things up so badly and get stuffed in a seat like Hartlepool, as looks set to happen tomorrow.

It's relatively easy to think about Labour messing up things in Hartlepool.

There is a cost to the right wing of the party rubbishing the former leader for 5 years and then appointing a remainer leader.

Reap what you sow.

[Millennial Snowflake]

It’s clearly not as simple as labour having a remainer or leaver as leader

Having a leaver in charge for 5 years didn’t go too well for them either

[BoniO]

Nobody knows what the Labour Party stands for any more. It's just lots of in-fighting and the rabid egotism of key players. Total feckin' mess. Such a shame.

Whereas the Tory Party is at least a constant, greed, corruption, selfishness, jobs for the boys, defend the privileged, screw the NHS etc et-bloody-cetera. Hurrah!

[Clive Evans]

Yes get everyone to watch Labour, so nobody sees, when the Conservatives steal the Crown Jewels.

[Currywurst and Chips]

[Dohnut]

Nobody knows what the Labour Party stands for any more. It's just lots of in-fighting and the rabid egotism of key players. Total feckin' mess. Such a shame.

Whereas the Tory Party is at least a constant, greed, corruption, selfishness, jobs for the boys, defend the privileged, screw the NHS etc et-bloody-cetera. Hurrah!

So you have just accused the people of Hartlepool of voting for greed, corruption, jobs for the boys, defenders of privilege, screw the NHS, etc. Not very nice. And of course not true. Or at least know crap is not confined to one party.

Until Labour get their heads out of their arses, kick out all these hysterical mantras and focus on policy, policy people can understand, relate to, believe in, support, they will be slow to recover. This is a bad day for Starmer, but we all knew the mess of the last leader would take some time to fix. And so it is proving. Just has Starmer himself made clear. He ain’t stupid.

[Ronnie Hotdogs]

Nobody knows what the Labour Party stands for any more. It's just lots of in-fighting and the rabid egotism of key players. Total feckin' mess. Such a shame.

Whereas the Tory Party is at least a constant, greed, corruption, selfishness, jobs for the boys, defend the privileged, screw the NHS etc et-bloody-cetera. Hurrah!

So you have just accused the people of Hartlepool of voting for greed, corruption, jobs for the boys, defenders of privilege, screw the NHS, etc. Not very nice. And of course not true. Or at least know crap is not confined to one party.

Until Labour get their heads out of their arses, kick out all these hysterical mantras and focus on policy, policy people can understand, relate to, believe in, support, they will be slow to recover. This is a bad day for Starmer, but we all knew the mess of the last leader would take some time to fix. And so it is proving. Just has Starmer himself made clear. He ain’t stupid.

Have you just apportioned this result to Corbyn? I wonder how many more years people like you will be using that excuse? To be fair, you got the best part of 10 years out of blaming Tory austerity on Brown, so there’s mileage in this yet I guess.

Of course The People of Hartlepool didn’t vote for greed and corruption and cronyism and selling off of the NHS. They voted for Getting Brexit Done.

[greyhound]

I wonder how many lefties on here will confess that they voted conservative.

[Millennial Snowflake]

Nobody knows what the Labour Party stands for any more. It's just lots of in-fighting and the rabid egotism of key players. Total feckin' mess. Such a shame.

Whereas the Tory Party is at least a constant, greed, corruption, selfishness, jobs for the boys, defend the privileged, screw the NHS etc et-bloody-cetera. Hurrah!

So you have just accused the people of Hartlepool of voting for greed, corruption, jobs for the boys, defenders of privilege, screw the NHS, etc. Not very nice. And of course not true. Or at least know crap is not confined to one party.

Until Labour get their heads out of their arses, kick out all these hysterical mantras and focus on policy, policy people can understand, relate to, believe in, support, they will be slow to recover. This is a bad day for Starmer, but we all knew the mess of the last leader would take some time to fix. And so it is proving. Just has Starmer himself made clear. He ain’t stupid.

Have you just apportioned this result to Corbyn? I wonder how many more years people like you will be using that excuse? To be fair, you got the best part of 10 years out of blaming Tory austerity on Brown, so there’s mileage in this yet I guess.

Of course The People of Hartlepool didn’t vote for greed and corruption and cronyism and selling off of the NHS. They voted for Getting Brexit Done.

But we Got Brexit Done already

[BoniO]

Nobody knows what the Labour Party stands for any more. It's just lots of in-fighting and the rabid egotism of key players. Total feckin' mess. Such a shame.

Whereas the Tory Party is at least a constant, greed, corruption, selfishness, jobs for the boys, defend the privileged, screw the NHS etc et-bloody-cetera. Hurrah!

So you have just accused the people of Hartlepool of voting for greed, corruption, jobs for the boys, defenders of privilege, screw the NHS, etc. Not very nice. And of course not true. Or at least know crap is not confined to one party.

Until Labour get their heads out of their arses, kick out all these hysterical mantras and focus on policy, policy people can understand, relate to, believe in, support, they will be slow to recover. This is a bad day for Starmer, but we all knew the mess of the last leader would take some time to fix. And so it is proving. Just has Starmer himself made clear. He ain’t stupid.

Labour are a mess and that's clear to all. But the people of Hartlepool really have just voted for the party of corruption etc, etc, etc. There is no denying that truth. Why? - is the question that needs to be answered.

As for your usual line that the corruption etc, is not confined to the one party, give me a break. This Tory Government is the most corrupt, arrogant, incompetent administration we have ever seen. And it's blatant, they're not even trying to hide it. But so many just don't care any more. That's the legacy this government will leave. They can do as they like and the majority don't give a sh*t.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Labour is the party of middle class accountants and students from the South East.

They claim to care about the working classes but in reality sneer and belittle them and find some of the Non woke group think things a lot of them as well as the wider country believe to be unconscionable.

With the Tories placing their tanks on Labour's lawn economically while still maintaining a social small c conservatism socially - One that doesn't belive there are 50 genders or someone should lose their job for calling someone with a penis and a beard, Sir. Labour are fuc*Ed.

[Mistadobalina]

I guess if you're a voter in Hartlepool, you'll be looking at the Tees valley bringing in investment, newly elected Tory MPs in neighbouring constituencies bringing in cash, and thinking why not have a go. I do sort of get it. Tories are spending a load of money right now and they aren't having to make any difficult decisions whilst we're still in the health and economic crisis of the pandemic.

But I can't see how they square the circle in the longer term between being fiscally conservative and keeping voters on board who live in places decimated by austerity. At some point they will begin to make unpopular decisions again. Labour have to have an alternative at that point.

[Dohnut]

Nobody knows what the Labour Party stands for any more. It's just lots of in-fighting and the rabid egotism of key players. Total feckin' mess. Such a shame.

Whereas the Tory Party is at least a constant, greed, corruption, selfishness, jobs for the boys, defend the privileged, screw the NHS etc et-bloody-cetera. Hurrah!

So you have just accused the people of Hartlepool of voting for greed, corruption, jobs for the boys, defenders of privilege, screw the NHS, etc. Not very nice. And of course not true. Or at least know crap is not confined to one party.

Until Labour get their heads out of their arses, kick out all these hysterical mantras and focus on policy, policy people can understand, relate to, believe in, support, they will be slow to recover. This is a bad day for Starmer, but we all knew the mess of the last leader would take some time to fix. And so it is proving. Just has Starmer himself made clear. He ain’t stupid.

Have you just apportioned this result to Corbyn? I wonder how many more years people like you will be using that excuse? To be fair, you got the best part of 10 years out of blaming Tory austerity on Brown, so there’s mileage in this yet I guess.

Of course The People of Hartlepool didn’t vote for greed and corruption and cronyism and selling off of the NHS. They voted for Getting Brexit Done.

Brexit is done. This wasn’t a vote about Brexit. Labour is in a mess. Didn’t happen overnight. Nor did it, the mess, happen under Starmer. The poor guy has an almost impossible job right now. One not of his making.

[Max B Gold]

Labour is the party of middle class accountants and students from the South East.

They claim to care about the working classes but in reality sneer and belittle them and find some of the Non woke group think things a lot of them as well as the wider country believe to be unconscionable.

With the Tories placing their tanks on Labour's lawn economically while still maintaining a social small c conservatism socially - One that doesn't belive there are 50 genders or someone should lose their job for calling someone with a penis and a beard, Sir. Labour are fuc*Ed.

Non of this is even remotely right.

The Hartlepool result suggests that a large section of the traditional Labour vote either went elsewhere or didn't vote. There was nothing inspiring to vote for. No policies. No hope.

Your over emphasis on the culture war is wrong. It's just something that is filling the political vacuum caused by a divided Labour Party with a poor, incompetent leader.

[Mistadobalina]

Labour is the party of middle class accountants and students from the South East.

They claim to care about the working classes but in reality sneer and belittle them and find some of the Non woke group think things a lot of them as well as the wider country believe to be unconscionable.

With the Tories placing their tanks on Labour's lawn economically while still maintaining a social small c conservatism socially - One that doesn't belive there are 50 genders or someone should lose their job for calling someone with a penis and a beard, Sir. Labour are fuc*Ed.

Non of this is even remotely right.

The Hartlepool result suggests that a large section of the traditional Labour vote either went elsewhere or didn't vote. There was nothing inspiring to vote for. No policies. No hope.

Your over emphasis on the culture war is wrong. It's just something that is filling the political vacuum caused by a divided Labour Party with a poor, incompetent leader.

Agreed. If anything Starmer has done the pivot towards "traditional' identity based politics, and it comes off contrived, naff and inauthentic. Worry is he has made a very superficial reading of where Labour has gone wrong and doesn't seem to have a vision of how to rectify it. Bland managerialism wrapped in a flag isn't a proposition to vote for, even if the space he's had to establish himself has been very limited due to the pandemic.

[Admin]

I guess if you're a voter in Hartlepool, you'll be looking at the Tees valley bringing in investment, newly elected Tory MPs in neighbouring constituencies bringing in cash, and thinking why not have a go. I do sort of get it. Tories are spending a load of money right now and they aren't having to make any difficult decisions whilst we're still in the health and economic crisis of the pandemic.

But I can't see how they square the circle in the longer term between being fiscally conservative and keeping voters on board who live in places decimated by austerity. At some point they will begin to make unpopular decisions again. Labour have to have an alternative at that point.

The first point here can't be underestimated - it'll also be repeated elsewhere where the Tories broke through the "Red Wall". The remaining labour constituencies are going to be under this type of pressure at the next election.

Starmer's admittedly had a difficult gig in being leader of the opposition during the pandemic but I still feel he's failed to really lay a serious glove on Johnson et al for all of their failings and corruption. Sort of goes hand in glove with the perceived lack of identity generally and a clear set of policies (alternative or otherwise).

The sad thing is this result is likely to lead to just more infighting between the extremes on either side of the party. Both sides are still intent on vilifying / exonerating Saint Jeremy rather than recognising his irrelevance now. For a supposed unity candidate, for me it's where Starmer's really failed in being unable to bring either side of the party closer together. Reverting to the Blair format by consulting Mandelson etc just looks like what it is - an inability to forge a new route with policies.

Personally, I don't see Labour recovering for 10+ years (if at all). I just don't see how it can be reconciled to attracting votes from the so called liberal elite in major cities and disgruntled ex union members / blue collar workforce in Hartlepool and the like. Certainly can't see them in sole power under FPTP any time this decade.

[Dunners]

Starmer was always going to struggle to overcome his metropolitan-liberal-remainer-elite image, because that's exactly what he is. The Labour party just currently does not have the personnel that will 'get it' and have the ability to connect with target voters. I can't see that changing any time soon either.

The problem for the country is that Labour are now completely irrelevant, but under our current system remain too big to allow a better alternative to emerge.

[Currywurst and Chips]

Labour is the party of middle class accountants and students from the South East.

They claim to care about the working classes but in reality sneer and belittle them and find some of the Non woke group think things a lot of them as well as the wider country believe to be unconscionable.

With the Tories placing their tanks on Labour's lawn economically while still maintaining a social small c conservatism socially - One that doesn't belive there are 50 genders or someone should lose their job for calling someone with a penis and a beard, Sir. Labour are fuc*Ed.

Non of this is even remotely right.

The Hartlepool result suggests that a large section of the traditional Labour vote either went elsewhere or didn't vote. There was nothing inspiring to vote for. No policies. No hope.

Your over emphasis on the culture war is wrong. It's just something that is filling the political vacuum caused by a divided Labour Party with a poor, incompetent leader.

Yeah, they're not turning out because the Labour Party they see doesn't represent them any more and their priorities are all wrong - As I said

[KenleyO]

Starmer hasn't helped himself though has he? Vitually the entire shadow cabinet is made up of staunch remainers and it just gives the vibe of we don't care what you think, this is how you should think.
The Brexit vote should have been an eye opener that this kind of mantra brainwashing does not work, and voters will tend to rebel against it.

[Currywurst and Chips]

This isn't anything new though, the working classes have always disappointed the middle-class socialist movement

[Mistadobalina]

Starmer was always going to struggle to overcome his metropolitan-liberal-remainer-elite image, because that's exactly what he is. The Labour party just currently does not have the personnel that will 'get it' and have the ability to connect with target voters. I can't see that changing any time soon either.

The problem for the country is that Labour are now completely irrelevant, but under our current system remain too big to allow a better alternative to emerge.

Feel like a broken record in saying this but Nandy was warning about exactly this throughout the leadership campaign. She is from and represents one of these areas, she was very clear about the dangers of being perceived as the remain party and she was onto the need to articulate something for those towns Labour is now losing.

[Admin]

Mandelson on R4 claiming Labour lost because of Covid and Corbyn. Love to see his workings on reaching that conclusion.

[Max B Gold]

I guess if you're a voter in Hartlepool, you'll be looking at the Tees valley bringing in investment, newly elected Tory MPs in neighbouring constituencies bringing in cash, and thinking why not have a go. I do sort of get it. Tories are spending a load of money right now and they aren't having to make any difficult decisions whilst we're still in the health and economic crisis of the pandemic.

But I can't see how they square the circle in the longer term between being fiscally conservative and keeping voters on board who live in places decimated by austerity. At some point they will begin to make unpopular decisions again. Labour have to have an alternative at that point.

The first point here can't be underestimated - it'll also be repeated elsewhere where the Tories broke through the "Red Wall". The remaining labour constituencies are going to be under this type of pressure at the next election.

Starmer's admittedly had a difficult gig in being leader of the opposition during the pandemic but I still feel he's failed to really lay a serious glove on Johnson et al for all of their failings and corruption. Sort of goes hand in glove with the perceived lack of identity generally and a clear set of policies (alternative or otherwise).

The sad thing is this result is likely to lead to just more infighting between the extremes on either side of the party. Both sides are still intent on vilifying / exonerating Saint Jeremy rather than recognising his irrelevance now. For a supposed unity candidate, for me it's where Starmer's really failed in being unable to bring either side of the party closer together. Reverting to the Blair format by consulting Mandelson etc just looks like what it is - an inability to forge a new route with policies.

Personally, I don't see Labour recovering for 10+ years (if at all). I just don't see how it can be reconciled to attracting votes from the so called liberal elite in major cities and disgruntled ex union members / blue collar workforce in Hartlepool and the like. Certainly can't see them in sole power under FPTP any time this decade.

The first point can be over estimated. What will be the reality for workers of securing that lovely Tory money? Zero hours contracts, minimum wage jobs, a harsher benefits regime, lack of affordable housing , an NHS starved of cash?

When people experience more of those conditions and see the money disappear into the same old pockets they will soon change their tune.

Yes there will be more infighting driven by deep ideological differences. Yes Starmer is a crap leader. Now is the time to leave the hollowed out bureaucrat led Labour Party who champion business owners before workers and for socialists and the trade unions to begin the task of building a socialist party.

[Dunners]

Starmer was always going to struggle to overcome his metropolitan-liberal-remainer-elite image, because that's exactly what he is. The Labour party just currently does not have the personnel that will 'get it' and have the ability to connect with target voters. I can't see that changing any time soon either.

The problem for the country is that Labour are now completely irrelevant, but under our current system remain too big to allow a better alternative to emerge.

Feel like a broken record in saying this but Nandy was warning about exactly this throughout the leadership campaign. She is from and represents one of these areas, she was very clear about the dangers of being perceived as the remain party and she was onto the need to articulate something for those towns Labour is now losing.

Yeah, to be fair she did. But the membership just wasn't/isn't aligned. I happen to think that she dodged a bullet when she lost that leadership campaign. If (and that's a big 'if') Labour is to turn itself around, it may have even further to fall yet.