Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:48 pm**

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:14 pm
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:50 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:49 pm The left needs to make a choice. It either fights the so-called culture war, or it fights the economic/power war. It cannot fight, and win, both.

The culture war has been a boom to the right, as they have (correctly) calculated that that significant factions on the left will play to the "blue-haired ranty middle-class intellectual" type. The left has allowed itself to be distracted by nonsense whilst workers' rights and other core values in respect of the balance of wealth distribution have been eroded. And I suspect that plenty of the Labour party membership has been quite happy to go along with that, because the fight for greater wealth distribution is just too hard (or even against their interests).

The economic/power war is where it's at. Win that and then you may even have a chance of winning a culture war (although I suspect that we'd no longer feel the need to). But it will never work the other way around. So that means building on what works - collective bargaining and action.

In the meantime Labour continues on as the rotting carcass that it is. Never winning real power for those it claims to represent, whilst remaining too big a blockage to prevent another party emerging as a credible alternative.
Think you're being too anglocentric here. Centre left parties are failing across the world. At a time where people are angrily anti politics, the party that by it's very nature does 'more' politics are going to struggle. And any attempt to reform how we do politics will be seen to be doing 'more', even if it is a case of actually giving power up to citizens.

Not to mention that the left is struggling because it has to implausibly argue it'll reform economic and financial systems that are so vastly complex that no-one knows what's going on with them.

Guess Biden making a splash with reform over in the states is somewhat encouraging, but it took the worst president of all time to get him into power.
Which is why I think unions still have a key role to play. The premise is simple; Pay your dues, get your rewards.

They do because they are still one of the major institutions of the organised working class. As Labour moves further right toward irrelevance for that class the unions need to step up and begin the break with Labour.

First step is to direct political funds away from them and to organisations that support socialist politics and the interests of their members.

Next step is to disaffiliate from Labour and to refound an anti-capitalist socialist Labour party based on transforming society from one based on exploitation to one based on liberty, cooperation and equality.

Posted: **Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:00 pm**

Funny thing is, what you're proposing (breaking up the two party system) would be a lot easier if we had the reformed voting system you said was irrelevant as it doesn't directly and immediately address economic injustice.

Fud.

Posted: **Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:11 pm**

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:00 pm Funny thing is, what you're proposing (breaking up the two party system) would be a lot easier if we had the reformed voting system you said was irrelevant as it doesn't directly and immediately address economic injustice.

Fud.

I did not at any stage say we should not reform the voting system. We should.

Why the insult is all this too much for you?

Posted: **Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:57 pm**

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:14 pm
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:50 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:49 pm The left needs to make a choice. It either fights the so-called culture war, or it fights the economic/power war. It cannot fight, and win, both.

The culture war has been a boom to the right, as they have (correctly) calculated that that significant factions on the left will play to the "blue-haired ranty middle-class intellectual" type. The left has allowed itself to be distracted by nonsense whilst workers' rights and other core values in respect of the balance of wealth distribution have been eroded. And I suspect that plenty of the Labour party membership has been quite happy to go along with that, because the fight for greater wealth distribution is just too hard (or even against their interests).

The economic/power war is where it's at. Win that and then you may even have a chance of winning a culture war (although I suspect that we'd no longer feel the need to). But it will never work the other way around. So that means building on what works - collective bargaining and action.

In the meantime Labour continues on as the rotting carcass that it is. Never winning real power for those it claims to represent, whilst remaining too big a blockage to prevent another party emerging as a credible alternative.
Think you're being too anglocentric here. Centre left parties are failing across the world. At a time where people are angrily anti politics, the party that by it's very nature does 'more' politics are going to struggle. And any attempt to reform how we do politics will be seen to be doing 'more', even if it is a case of actually giving power up to citizens.

Not to mention that the left is struggling because it has to implausibly argue it'll reform economic and financial systems that are so vastly complex that no-one knows what's going on with them.

Guess Biden making a splash with reform over in the states is somewhat encouraging, but it took the worst president of all time to get him into power.
Which is why I think unions still have a key role to play. The premise is simple; Pay your dues, get your rewards.

Don’t you mean pay your dues, we will build a hotel and conference centre for £7m and watch the costs escalate to £98m and we won’t explain how it happened.

Sounds like hands are in the till. What were you saying about the Tory government? Seems like the lefties like a bit of free cash whilst the workers get shafted good and proper.

Hypocrites.

Posted: **Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:14 pm**

If only there was some material we could discuss on the Tory Watch thread.

Posted: **Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:53 am**

Let the members decide who is their democratically elected leader

Posted: **Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:57 am**

They didn't ask me.

Posted: **Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:10 pm**

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:53 am Let the members decide who is their democratically elected leader

Posted: **Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:51 pm**

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:53 am Let the members decide who is their democratically elected leader

Pure comedy gold.Now you know why Labour is so far behind in the polls, and why i think Labour is a spent force never to form a government again

Posted: **Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:54 pm**

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:51 pm
Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:53 am Let the members decide who is their democratically elected leader

Pure comedy gold.Now you know why Labour is so far behind in the polls, and why i think Labour is a spent force never to form a government again

Hot take bruh, except the polls have narrowed since he took over.

Posted: **Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:34 pm**

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:54 pm
ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:51 pm
Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:53 am Let the members decide who is their democratically elected leader

Pure comedy gold.Now you know why Labour is so far behind in the polls, and why i think Labour is a spent force never to form a government again
Hot take bruh, except the polls have narrowed since he took over.

Quite. But clearly there's issues with Starmer Pammy, and it can't all be blamed on the left can it?

Posted: **Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:10 pm**

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:34 pm
Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:54 pm
ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:51 pm

Pure comedy gold.Now you know why Labour is so far behind in the polls, and why i think Labour is a spent force never to form a government again
Hot take bruh, except the polls have narrowed since he took over.
Quite. But clearly there's issues with Starmer Pammy, and it can't all be blamed on the left can it?

Yeah it goes beyond the left trying to sabotage "Sir Keith"

As has already been mentioned the Tories have ridden the culture war which the left were more than obliged to entertain (and still are)

At the point now where (as Spike said) people vote Tory just because they represent the opposition to change

They fear: 59 genders... Or the fear for being sacked for accidently saying "Poof" at work or accidently saying "he" to someone who is biologically male but is "transitioning".

While this is mainly fabricated fears in most instances, the left will cancel someone famous for it and John who works at Sainsburys stacking shelves will have to reconsider voting Labour

Posted: **Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:25 pm**

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:34 pm
Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:54 pm
ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:51 pm

Pure comedy gold.Now you know why Labour is so far behind in the polls, and why i think Labour is a spent force never to form a government again
Hot take bruh, except the polls have narrowed since he took over.
Quite. But clearly there's issues with Starmer Pammy, and it can't all be blamed on the left can it?

On a positive note it's good to see him opening up a 32 point lead over a man he's not actually in competition with.

Posted: **Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:35 pm**

When you're an ex Labour leader the basic rules of decency don't apply to you.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... tweet.html

Posted: **Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:38 pm**

The Tories and especially Bojo are loving this thread.

Posted: **Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:55 pm**

Thor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:35 pm When you're an ex Labour leader the basic rules of decency don't apply to you.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... tweet.html

When you start quoting the Nazi loving Daily Mail, you are on very rocky ground Thor

Posted: **Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:17 am**

Thor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:35 pm When you're an ex Labour leader the basic rules of decency don't apply to you.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... tweet.html

Obviously 40 minutes is too soon but can we talk about anything other than Phil dying yet?

Posted: **Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:37 pm**

"How I left the trader rat race behind and set up my own successful recruitment agency"

Posted: **Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:16 pm**

He's finally gone the full Morrissey.

Posted: **Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:21 pm**

Charlie Brooker done the exact same thing when he got promoted to the Big Time.

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:36 am**

Yeah, I know it's the Times & a right wing polling group but f*** me, that's still a surprising lead.

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:03 am**

"Right wing polling group"

Guess the public aren't that convinced by the Greensill scandal. After all, Text message Gate was leaked by the Murdoch press who we've been told are lying fascist scum

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:15 am**

Admin wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:36 am

Yeah, I know it's the Times & a right wing polling group but f*** me, that's still a surprising lead.

Im absolutely loving this.....all the Corbyn haters telling me how bad he was and if Labour had a leader who was more in the centre blah blah etc etc

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:17 am**

https://www.markpack.org.uk/155623/voti ... scorecard/

Polling seems to be a lot closer in other polls .
Much the same as the last election .

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:18 am**

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:15 am
Admin wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:36 am

Yeah, I know it's the Times & a right wing polling group but f*** me, that's still a surprising lead.
Im absolutely loving this.....all the Corbyn haters telling me how bad he was and if Labour had a leader who was more in the centre blah blah etc etc

So you hate Starmer more than the Government

Good ol' Tory divide and rule working wonders

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