Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:23 pm The Tories have increased their vote share every election since 1997

This is clearly John Smith's fault

Clive Evans wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:36 am Reminder:- It's not Labour that wants watching. It's the Tories with their incredibly ineffective and corrupt Government. Handing out contracts to their old school pals, taking huge back handers for their lobbying, totally screwing up the Northern Ireland accord and then washing their hands of it. They are very good at avoiding accountability by setting Worker against Worker.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:10 am
It’s bonkers that with everything that’s been going on these past 10/11 years, never mind the total clusterfuck of the past 12 months, all people want to do is talk about Labour. Weird.

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:16 am People like backing a winner, from glory hunting football fans to papers backing the winning party at elections

Big reason people vote Tory, they want to back winners. Tories are that, not only electorally but in life. If you look at your average Tory they're successful and that's a big appeal to these northerners who are aspirational.

OyinbO wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:45 am

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:16 am People like backing a winner, from glory hunting football fans to papers backing the winning party at elections

Big reason people vote Tory, they want to back winners. Tories are that, not only electorally but in life. If you look at your average Tory they're successful and that's a big appeal to these northerners who are aspirational.

Have Northerners only become aspirational very recently then?

(you do actually make a valid point overall IMHO)

OyinbO wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:45 am

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:16 am People like backing a winner, from glory hunting football fans to papers backing the winning party at elections

Big reason people vote Tory, they want to back winners. Tories are that, not only electorally but in life. If you look at your average Tory they're successful and that's a big appeal to these northerners who are aspirational.

Have Northerners only become aspirational very recently then?

(you do actually make a valid point overall IMHO)

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:09 pm

OyinbO wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:45 am

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:16 am People like backing a winner, from glory hunting football fans to papers backing the winning party at elections

Big reason people vote Tory, they want to back winners. Tories are that, not only electorally but in life. If you look at your average Tory they're successful and that's a big appeal to these northerners who are aspirational.

Have Northerners only become aspirational very recently then?

(you do actually make a valid point overall IMHO)

Yeah, we need more successful Labour winners as role models. That should solve the perceived problem.

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:18 pm I actually believe we'll need to get used to Tory governments, because Labour is finished. Eventually something new will come along as the Tory alternative, but it wont be the Labour Party.

The Labour party has always been a coalition, of left & right, with the two factions hating each other, but always putting a brave face on it & not letting the warfare get out of hand, until the last few years, after the left gained control ( which they do about every 30 years) .
The warfare became open and hostile, with the right wing, smearing the leader, in order to discredit him..they even did everything they could to make sure he lost, and the Tories won.
We have a deficit of decent politicians now like never before in all/every Political Parties.

If Starmer were to stand down, then who would take over?...There isnt a decent capable person amongst them.

Toreis will be in power for decades now

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:18 pm I actually believe we'll need to get used to Tory governments, because Labour is finished. Eventually something new will come along as the Tory alternative, but it wont be the Labour Party.

The Labour party has always been a coalition, of left & right, with the two factions hating each other, but always putting a brave face on it & not letting the warfare get out of hand, until the last few years, after the left gained control ( which they do about every 30 years) .
The warfare became open and hostile, with the right wing, smearing the leader, in order to discredit him..they even did everything they could to make sure he lost, and the Tories won.
We have a deficit of decent politicians now like never before in all/every Political Parties.

If Starmer were to stand down, then who would take over?...There isnt a decent capable person amongst them.

Toreis will be in power for decades now

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:37 pm Did Tory government feel this permanent in 1989? Struggling to imagine what more they could do to obliterate their reputation for being the 'party of government'. Was too young to remember what the end days of Majors government were like but you're getting comparable corruption scandals now and they aren't causing a jot of damage. The pm was paying his mistress with taxpayers money and it's barely been reported.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:04 pm

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:37 pm Did Tory government feel this permanent in 1989? Struggling to imagine what more they could do to obliterate their reputation for being the 'party of government'. Was too young to remember what the end days of Majors government were like but you're getting comparable corruption scandals now and they aren't causing a jot of damage. The pm was paying his mistress with taxpayers money and it's barely been reported.

I don't think society was quite so polarised in those days.

Now we've got the country split - permanently, probably, due to culture wars & Brexit (of course) - there's a good 40% of the country that will support the current lot even if Johnson came round their houses at Christmas and shat on their kids. They can't NOT support the Tories, because they are the enemy of their enemies (the dreaded lefty do gooder wrist wringer flag-hating unwashed).

There's no penalty for venality, for corruption, for lying to our faces, or lying to Parliament - because a healthy chunk of the population, and an unhealthy chunk of the media, will support them no matter what.

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:49 pm The left needs to make a choice. It either fights the so-called culture war, or it fights the economic/power war. It cannot fight, and win, both.

The culture war has been a boom to the right, as they have (correctly) calculated that that significant factions on the left will play to the "blue-haired ranty middle-class intellectual" type. The left has allowed itself to be distracted by nonsense whilst workers' rights and other core values in respect of the balance of wealth distribution have been eroded. And I suspect that plenty of the Labour party membership has been quite happy to go along with that, because the fight for greater wealth distribution is just too hard (or even against their interests).

The economic/power war is where it's at. Win that and then you may even have a chance of winning a culture war (although I suspect that we'd no longer feel the need to). But it will never work the other way around. So that means building on what works - collective bargaining and action.

In the meantime Labour continues on as the rotting carcass that it is. Never winning real power for those it claims to represent, whilst remaining too big a blockage to prevent another party emerging as a credible alternative.

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:16 am People like backing a winner, from glory hunting football fans to papers backing the winning party at elections

Big reason people vote Tory, they want to back winners. Tories are that, not only electorally but in life. If you look at your average Tory they're successful and that's a big appeal to these northerners who are aspirational.

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:49 pm The left needs to make a choice. It either fights the so-called culture war, or it fights the economic/power war. It cannot fight, and win, both.

The culture war has been a boom to the right, as they have (correctly) calculated that that significant factions on the left will play to the "blue-haired ranty middle-class intellectual" type. The left has allowed itself to be distracted by nonsense whilst workers' rights and other core values in respect of the balance of wealth distribution have been eroded. And I suspect that plenty of the Labour party membership has been quite happy to go along with that, because the fight for greater wealth distribution is just too hard (or even against their interests).

The economic/power war is where it's at. Win that and then you may even have a chance of winning a culture war (although I suspect that we'd no longer feel the need to). But it will never work the other way around. So that means building on what works - collective bargaining and action.

In the meantime Labour continues on as the rotting carcass that it is. Never winning real power for those it claims to represent, whilst remaining too big a blockage to prevent another party emerging as a credible alternative.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:50 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:49 pm The left needs to make a choice. It either fights the so-called culture war, or it fights the economic/power war. It cannot fight, and win, both.

The culture war has been a boom to the right, as they have (correctly) calculated that that significant factions on the left will play to the "blue-haired ranty middle-class intellectual" type. The left has allowed itself to be distracted by nonsense whilst workers' rights and other core values in respect of the balance of wealth distribution have been eroded. And I suspect that plenty of the Labour party membership has been quite happy to go along with that, because the fight for greater wealth distribution is just too hard (or even against their interests).

The economic/power war is where it's at. Win that and then you may even have a chance of winning a culture war (although I suspect that we'd no longer feel the need to). But it will never work the other way around. So that means building on what works - collective bargaining and action.

In the meantime Labour continues on as the rotting carcass that it is. Never winning real power for those it claims to represent, whilst remaining too big a blockage to prevent another party emerging as a credible alternative.

Think you're being too anglocentric here. Centre left parties are failing across the world. At a time where people are angrily anti politics, the party that by it's very nature does 'more' politics are going to struggle. And any attempt to reform how we do politics will be seen to be doing 'more', even if it is a case of actually giving power up to citizens.

Not to mention that the left is struggling because it has to implausibly argue it'll reform economic and financial systems that are so vastly complex that no-one knows what's going on with them.

Guess Biden making a splash with reform over in the states is somewhat encouraging, but it took the worst president of all time to get him into power.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:50 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:49 pm The left needs to make a choice. It either fights the so-called culture war, or it fights the economic/power war. It cannot fight, and win, both.

The culture war has been a boom to the right, as they have (correctly) calculated that that significant factions on the left will play to the "blue-haired ranty middle-class intellectual" type. The left has allowed itself to be distracted by nonsense whilst workers' rights and other core values in respect of the balance of wealth distribution have been eroded. And I suspect that plenty of the Labour party membership has been quite happy to go along with that, because the fight for greater wealth distribution is just too hard (or even against their interests).

The economic/power war is where it's at. Win that and then you may even have a chance of winning a culture war (although I suspect that we'd no longer feel the need to). But it will never work the other way around. So that means building on what works - collective bargaining and action.

In the meantime Labour continues on as the rotting carcass that it is. Never winning real power for those it claims to represent, whilst remaining too big a blockage to prevent another party emerging as a credible alternative.

Think you're being too anglocentric here. Centre left parties are failing across the world. At a time where people are angrily anti politics, the party that by it's very nature does 'more' politics are going to struggle. And any attempt to reform how we do politics will be seen to be doing 'more', even if it is a case of actually giving power up to citizens.

Not to mention that the left is struggling because it has to implausibly argue it'll reform economic and financial systems that are so vastly complex that no-one knows what's going on with them.

Guess Biden making a splash with reform over in the states is somewhat encouraging, but it took the worst president of all time to get him into power.