Independent Leyton Orient Forum

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:28 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:35 am But I'm looking at stats from NHS England.

These still only show the deaths in hospitals don't they? Where are the deaths in care homes and other places shown?

There have been so many iterations of the data that I honestly don't know what the real numbers are any more.

Knowing the real numbers is exceptionally difficult, almost impossible. Something that is no doubt true across the globe.

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:28 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:35 am But I'm looking at stats from NHS England.

These still only show the deaths in hospitals don't they? Where are the deaths in care homes and other places shown?

There have been so many iterations of the data that I honestly don't know what the real numbers are any more.

Wasn't that changed around a month to 6 weeks ago to include all community?

Thor wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:38 pm It would be truly accurate if they didn't put everyone down as covid when that wasn't the reason why they died. If you look at the WHO website it will show you all you need to know about pushing the death certificate to certify covid as a reason for death. Now why would they do that?

This has always been an issue. There is a difference between someone who died as a result of Covid and someone who died where the virus was present but not a contributing cause.

Numbers will always be guesstimates.

A superb video!

Boris Johnson has the nerve to blame care homes for the massive number of covid deaths amongst their residents when his policies are demonstrably to blame. In this video, I explain how he failed care homes, why his blame is particularly callous, and wonder if the public will buy it.

You don't seem to be taking the risk as serious as someone of your advanced years should. :-(

It aint over til the fat lady stops coughing.

Mikero

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:05 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:28 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:35 am But I'm looking at stats from NHS England.

These still only show the deaths in hospitals don't they? Where are the deaths in care homes and other places shown?

There have been so many iterations of the data that I honestly don't know what the real numbers are any more.

Wasn't that changed around a month to 6 weeks ago to include all community?

I think the numbers announced at the daily briefing were changed to include all but PW states that he's looking at NHS only stats. I don't think these NHS stats are "all inclusive" numbers i.e including care homes and other non-NHS locations. The government aren't exactly trying too hard to make it clear and understandable.

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:01 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:05 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:28 am

These still only show the deaths in hospitals don't they? Where are the deaths in care homes and other places shown?

There have been so many iterations of the data that I honestly don't know what the real numbers are any more.

Wasn't that changed around a month to 6 weeks ago to include all community?

I think the numbers announced at the daily briefing were changed to include all but PW states that he's looking at NHS only stats. I don't think these NHS stats are "all inclusive" numbers i.e including care homes and other non-NHS locations. The government aren't exactly trying too hard to make it clear and understandable.

Fair enough, you're right then that these don't include wider community so are a bit flawed. Good that the number of hospital deaths is lower overall though at least.

I thought it was near universally accepted that the government's handling of the statistics lies somewhere between deliberately obtuse and downright fiddled, we were only asked to provide information on staff tested and results after Boris quoted the number at PMQ's.

Despite all the bluster about world beating systems PHE are absolutely clear that there is still an issue with capacity for testing and we arent a priority. Our primary registration is for learning disability services so despite us reminding anyone who'll listen that that includes people over 65 and quite often with other health conditions we are not a priority for regular testing and have been told it may been in place for us by August and even then probably won't include the domicilliary care registered supporting housing services.

We're getting some access to antibody testing, so far we're running at about 40% of our staff testing positive including myself. Obviously my fault for not following the correct procedures, although in my defence I think at the time I was mildly unwell that was carry on as normal, shake hands with everyone and run your hands under a tap when you remember to.

https://coronavirus-staging.data.gov.uk/

Goverment UK reported data, most categories are upto date apart from daily admissions which are now down to single figures per day in all areas except the South West. Seems strange that this good news is not being updated!

faldO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:33 pm For the week ending June 26th there were 606 deaths mentioning covid-19 on the death certificate. The week before was 783. This is all settings.

For that week and the week before there were fewer deaths than would be expected in a "normal" week according to the 5-year rolling average.

This is across England and Wales for registered deaths, as reported by the ONS.

Various agencies report numbers that are different (eg different settings, registered vs non registered, etc). This is why people like Chris Whitty say a truly accurate picture can only be achieved some way down the line.

So Covid is saving lives now?

Keep twisting data fella - you’ll find the truth one day.

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:31 am

RedO wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:59 am We're going to just roll on with 1,000 a week dying indefinitely, aren't we?

Where are you getting 1000 a week from? The nhs stats show double figures per day.

c100-150 per day?

Disoriented wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:58 pm

faldO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:33 pm For the week ending June 26th there were 606 deaths mentioning covid-19 on the death certificate. The week before was 783. This is all settings.

For that week and the week before there were fewer deaths than would be expected in a "normal" week according to the 5-year rolling average.

This is across England and Wales for registered deaths, as reported by the ONS.

Various agencies report numbers that are different (eg different settings, registered vs non registered, etc). This is why people like Chris Whitty say a truly accurate picture can only be achieved some way down the line.

So Covid is saving lives now?

Keep twisting data fella - you’ll find the truth one day.

Of course Covid is not saving lives.

How you managed to come to that conclusion from what I wrote shows you have no idea about numbers and are satisfied with the daily spoon-feeding from the BBC and MSM.

On the other hand, if you want to say what data I have twisted in what I said I am happy to explain it.

Surely all this arguing over data is rather pointless right now? Would the best measure not be for each country to report its above average death rate for a sustained period of time (i.e. 12-18 months starting form first reported Covid death)?

You'd then have what is probably going to be the most realistic picture of how many people have died from it and, by reporting per million, an objective compare and contrast exercise can be carried out to determine the most effective strategy.

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:50 am Surely all this arguing over data is rather pointless right now? Would the best measure not be for each country to report its above average death rate for a sustained period of time (i.e. 12-18 months starting form first reported Covid death)?

You'd then have what is probably going to be the most realistic picture of how many people have died from it and, by reporting per million, an objective compare and contrast exercise can be carried out to determine the most effective strategy.

Good luck getting Hancock and co. to agree to anything remotely honest and logical.

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:37 am

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:31 am

RedO wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:59 am We're going to just roll on with 1,000 a week dying indefinitely, aren't we?

Where are you getting 1000 a week from? The nhs stats show double figures per day.

c100-150 per day?

Current rolling average is 603 in the last week I believe.

South Korea (pop 51 million): 289 deaths
Thailand (pop 70 million): 58 deaths
Singapore (pop 6 million): 26 deaths
Taiwan (population 24 million): 7 deaths
Vietnam (pop 95 million) : 0 deaths.

UK (pop 68 million): 44,630 deaths officially, 65,000+ according to ONS research on the excess death rate.

Yet we still have morons suggesting that the Tory Govt. have done a good job.

NuneatonO's wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:09 am South Korea (pop 51 million): 289 deaths
Thailand (pop 70 million): 58 deaths
Singapore (pop 6 million): 26 deaths
Taiwan (population 24 million): 7 deaths
Vietnam (pop 95 million) : 0 deaths.

UK (pop 68 million): 44,630 deaths officially, 65,000+ according to ONS research on the excess death rate.

Yet we still have morons suggesting that the Tory Govt. have done a good job.

You couldn’t make it up, Nun. Everyone needs to face facts - we have slaughtered tens of thousands of innocents wantonly.

No question mistakes have been made. Instinctively it’s felt like we were too slow to react.

The mrs and I were saying much much earlier in the year why aren’t all routine international passenger flights suspended – I lay that one at the door of the WHO, for seemed obvious that containment should have been a higher priority significantly earlier.

I was last in the office on 18th March, having felt uncomfortable there for a good week – couldn’t social distance, too many door handles to touch, too many people to pass in corridors – said to boss as my mrs is on the high risk list I would work from home (which was readily agreed), but it wasn’t until the following week that the government lockdown announcement was made.

The question which remains uppermost in my mind is that if we’ve been following scientific advice, how come we’ve got so many deaths? Does feel like scientific advice has been wide of the mark on some things too, can’t pin this all on government. And successive governments don’t seem to have properly been organised for a pandemic, for example with regard to PPE.

EastDerehamO wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:40 am No question mistakes have been made. Instinctively it’s felt like we were too slow to react.

The mrs and I were saying much much earlier in the year why aren’t all routine international passenger flights suspended – I lay that one at the door of the WHO, for seemed obvious that containment should have been a higher priority significantly earlier.

I was last in the office on 18th March, having felt uncomfortable there for a good week – couldn’t social distance, too many door handles to touch, too many people to pass in corridors – said to boss as my mrs is on the high risk list I would work from home (which was readily agreed), but it wasn’t until the following week that the government lockdown announcement was made.

The question which remains uppermost in my mind is that if we’ve been following scientific advice, how come we’ve got so many deaths? Does feel like scientific advice has been wide of the mark on some things too, can’t pin this all on government. And successive governments don’t seem to have properly been organised for a pandemic, for example with regard to PPE.

1) The Government haven't been following scientific advice. That's why they've had their men in on the meetings, to ensure the advice given is the advice they wanted to hear.

2) If by successive governments are to blame for this, you mean successive Tory governments then yes, you are correct.

Today's press reporting that there could be a vaccine by the end of the year after first testing proved successful (though tbf even if the vaccines failed that still is successful testing)

An admission by the government which seems to have passed all the left wing faction on here by. If you've had covid but didn't die of it, you get recorded as dying from it. Do a massive number I'm sure died of other reasons which I've said before, but get recorded as covid.

There is an agenda and the numbers are way over inflated. ID2020 is to do with it.

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:31 am An admission by the government which seems to have passed all the left wing faction on here by. If you've had covid but didn't die of it, you get recorded as dying from it. Do a massive number I'm sure died of other reasons which I've said before, but get recorded as covid.

There is an agenda and the numbers are way over inflated. ID2020 is to do with it.

They said it is recorded differently
Scotland wales & northern ireland record covid deaths from last 28 days tests

England does from 3 months worth of tests a difference but a small difference
would be noticed.

Take as an example of a covid death
Canadian Actor Nick Cordero aged 41
Who died after recovering from Corona virus .
But he developed strokes & had a leg amputated because of
Corona virus & the strokes happened because of the corona virus .

Its not Rocket Science Thory boy .

He was a Healthy young Father
No underlying health problems
Who got covid & then developed covid complications & Died.

f****n hell you cant even understand Tory policy,
let alone the left & Labour
Mind boggling !


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... s-53306462

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:31 am An admission by the government which seems to have passed all the left wing faction on here by. If you've had covid but didn't die of it, you get recorded as dying from it.

What does this mean?

Anyone who dies who had tested positive at any point, is recorded as having died with covid. Which I thought was common knowledge anyway.