Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:10 pm**

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:58 pm
Oiram wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:37 pm
PoliticOs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:50 pm

Why are you so unpatriotic that you do not want to address the problems in the country and only focus on the positives?

I love the country so much I want it to be much better. Why don't you love it that much?

Unpatriotic? Having served The Queen and Country for many years. Wrong person to be saying that to as my conscience is clear in the Patriotic’ Department.
Great stuff, a fellow patriot. Thank you. But I'm obviously a bit more patriotic as I really want us to be better and am therefore willing to look at the negatives in the country and put those right rather than just focus on the things needing less attention and that are already OK. That's not me talking down the country, that is me talking it UP, as I want it to be greater.

That's how it works, right?

I get what Oiram is saying and it will take a lot to turn this around and get things moving forwards once more, I do have every faith in this government to provide the foundation for that to happen and it will happen.

However, it cannot be at the expense of leaving anyone behind, we have a real opportunity to reset this country and give everyone the help and support to succeed be it at work, in health, housing or whatever. Putting the economy at full steam ahead must ensure that everyone is on the same train.

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:28 pm**

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:58 pm
Oiram wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:37 pm
PoliticOs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:50 pm

Why are you so unpatriotic that you do not want to address the problems in the country and only focus on the positives?

I love the country so much I want it to be much better. Why don't you love it that much?

Unpatriotic? Having served The Queen and Country for many years. Wrong person to be saying that to as my conscience is clear in the Patriotic’ Department.
Great stuff, a fellow patriot. Thank you. But I'm obviously a bit more patriotic as I really want us to be better and am therefore willing to look at the negatives in the country and put those right rather than just focus on the things needing less attention and that are already OK. That's not me talking down the country, that is me talking it UP, as I want it to be greater.

That's how it works, right?

Patriot my arse. Never even done a war, not like backwards mario.

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:34 pm**

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:28 pm
PoliticOs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:58 pm
Oiram wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:37 pm

Unpatriotic? Having served The Queen and Country for many years. Wrong person to be saying that to as my conscience is clear in the Patriotic’ Department.
Great stuff, a fellow patriot. Thank you. But I'm obviously a bit more patriotic as I really want us to be better and am therefore willing to look at the negatives in the country and put those right rather than just focus on the things needing less attention and that are already OK. That's not me talking down the country, that is me talking it UP, as I want it to be greater.

That's how it works, right?
Patriot my arse. Never even done a war, not like backwards mario.

Where did backwards say he was at war ?

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:14 am**

Thor wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:10 pm
PoliticOs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:58 pm
Oiram wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:37 pm

Unpatriotic? Having served The Queen and Country for many years. Wrong person to be saying that to as my conscience is clear in the Patriotic’ Department.
Great stuff, a fellow patriot. Thank you. But I'm obviously a bit more patriotic as I really want us to be better and am therefore willing to look at the negatives in the country and put those right rather than just focus on the things needing less attention and that are already OK. That's not me talking down the country, that is me talking it UP, as I want it to be greater.

That's how it works, right?
I get what Oiram is saying and it will take a lot to turn this around and get things moving forwards once more, I do have every faith in this government to provide the foundation for that to happen and it will happen.

However, it cannot be at the expense of leaving anyone behind, we have a real opportunity to reset this country and give everyone the help and support to succeed be it at work, in health, housing or whatever. Putting the economy at full steam ahead must ensure that everyone is on the same train.

Will you be surprised if/when they do leave people behind?

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:26 am**

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:14 am
Thor wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:10 pm
PoliticOs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:58 pm

Great stuff, a fellow patriot. Thank you. But I'm obviously a bit more patriotic as I really want us to be better and am therefore willing to look at the negatives in the country and put those right rather than just focus on the things needing less attention and that are already OK. That's not me talking down the country, that is me talking it UP, as I want it to be greater.

That's how it works, right?
I get what Oiram is saying and it will take a lot to turn this around and get things moving forwards once more, I do have every faith in this government to provide the foundation for that to happen and it will happen.

However, it cannot be at the expense of leaving anyone behind, we have a real opportunity to reset this country and give everyone the help and support to succeed be it at work, in health, housing or whatever. Putting the economy at full steam ahead must ensure that everyone is on the same train.
Will you be surprised if/when they do leave people behind?

The thing about everybody being on the same train is the problem of everyone getting on. Some just can’t be bothered to try even when the doors are open. Let’s provide the ramps and assistance for those that need it and want it. For those not bothered, they will be left behind. So let’s blame the train drivers.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:16 am**

Thor wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:10 pm
PoliticOs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:58 pm
Oiram wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:37 pm

Unpatriotic? Having served The Queen and Country for many years. Wrong person to be saying that to as my conscience is clear in the Patriotic’ Department.
Great stuff, a fellow patriot. Thank you. But I'm obviously a bit more patriotic as I really want us to be better and am therefore willing to look at the negatives in the country and put those right rather than just focus on the things needing less attention and that are already OK. That's not me talking down the country, that is me talking it UP, as I want it to be greater.

That's how it works, right?
I get what Oiram is saying and it will take a lot to turn this around and get things moving forwards once more, I do have every faith in this government to provide the foundation for that to happen and it will happen.

However, it cannot be at the expense of leaving anyone behind, we have a real opportunity to reset this country and give everyone the help and support to succeed be it at work, in health, housing or whatever. Putting the economy at full steam ahead must ensure that everyone is on the same train.

Yeah, this government definitely give off indications that they won’t leave anyone behind.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:33 am**

Watching Thatcher portrayed on The Crown reminded me that she also wanted to “improve” the country 40 years ago. Pretty sure she didn’t succeed, and the social casualties were rife, but there’s no denying she changed it.

Don’t think Johnson and Co are quite so ideological as “no such thing as society” Thatch, but you sense the changes they are ramming through (or were, until covid forced them into temporary war communism mode) will also have longer term, negative consequences for us plebs.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:11 am**

slacker wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:33 am Watching Thatcher portrayed on The Crown reminded me that she also wanted to “improve” the country 40 years ago. Pretty sure she didn’t succeed, and the social casualties were rife, but there’s no denying she changed it.

Don’t think Johnson and Co are quite so ideological as “no such thing as society” Thatch, but you sense the changes they are ramming through (or were, until covid forced them into temporary war communism mode) will also have longer term, negative consequences for us plebs.

And the worse part is they will never take responsibility. Covid has come at a good time for them, in that regard.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:51 am**

Dohnut wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:26 am
The thing about everybody being on the same train is the problem of everyone getting on. Some just can’t be bothered to try even when the doors are open. Let’s provide the ramps and assistance for those that need it and want it. For those not bothered, they will be left behind. So let’s blame the train drivers.

But we have so many that DO want help and DO need it and are NOT getting it. Why are you bringing those that don't want the help into it?

We do the same thing with things like disability benefits. People are so sh*t scared of people claiming for things they are not entitled to, we have forced a whole generation of disabled people into struggle and poverty all in case a statistically very small number of people take the piss. Why do we worry so much about those people that we ruin the lives of the deserving? Rather than thinking 'they need help! Let's help them' we think 'well, we need to be careful, what if this small number over there take the mick?'. It is backwards.

Very few people 'just can't be bothered'. I know you're doing your devils advocate/defend the government thing, but I think you're wrong here.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:54 am**

Thor wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:10 pm
PoliticOs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:58 pm
Oiram wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:37 pm

Unpatriotic? Having served The Queen and Country for many years. Wrong person to be saying that to as my conscience is clear in the Patriotic’ Department.
Great stuff, a fellow patriot. Thank you. But I'm obviously a bit more patriotic as I really want us to be better and am therefore willing to look at the negatives in the country and put those right rather than just focus on the things needing less attention and that are already OK. That's not me talking down the country, that is me talking it UP, as I want it to be greater.

That's how it works, right?
I get what Oiram is saying and it will take a lot to turn this around and get things moving forwards once more, I do have every faith in this government to provide the foundation for that to happen and it will happen.

However, it cannot be at the expense of leaving anyone behind, we have a real opportunity to reset this country and give everyone the help and support to succeed be it at work, in health, housing or whatever. Putting the economy at full steam ahead must ensure that everyone is on the same train.

Bloody hell. What more would this government have to do to lose your faith?

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:06 pm**

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:51 am
Dohnut wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:26 am
The thing about everybody being on the same train is the problem of everyone getting on. Some just can’t be bothered to try even when the doors are open. Let’s provide the ramps and assistance for those that need it and want it. For those not bothered, they will be left behind. So let’s blame the train drivers.
But we have so many that DO want help and DO need it and are NOT getting it. Why are you bringing those that don't want the help into it?

We do the same thing with things like disability benefits. People are so sh*t scared of people claiming for things they are not entitled to, we have forced a whole generation of disabled people into struggle and poverty all in case a statistically very small number of people take the p*ss. Why do we worry so much about those people that we ruin the lives of the deserving? Rather than thinking 'they need help! Let's help them' we think 'well, we need to be careful, what if this small number over there take the mick?'. It is backwards.

Very few people 'just can't be bothered'. I know you're doing your devils advocate/defend the government thing, but I think you're wrong here.

This is correct there is a whole ideology created around the "undeserving poor" to ensure workers are fragmented even when being fed crumbs.

Why do claimants have to wait 5 weeks to receive Universal Credit? The answer is that the Tories have decided to punish claimants and make their lives even more difficult at a time of crisis.

The level of benefits paid does not compare with our near neighbours in France, Germany, Holland etc. How do these advanced industrial countries manage to look after their people so much better than the UK?

It's time for a non means tested Universal Income for all.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:04 pm**

Just wandering what those on both sides of the political spectrum think of Labours decision to abstain from the vote on the tiers today.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:11 pm**

JimbO wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:04 pm Just wandering what those on both sides of the political spectrum think of Labours decision to abstain from the vote on the tiers today.

Starmer Out!

Little did we know then that Jeremy's leadership would come to be seen as a golden age.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:09 pm**

JimbO wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:04 pm Just wandering what those on both sides of the political spectrum think of Labours decision to abstain from the vote on the tiers today.

Corbyn was always a massive fence-sitter on key issues. I was hoping Starmer would perhaps be a little more opinionated. What does “not in the National interest to oppose” mean? He sort of agrees but has issues with some of the finer details.

Trying to have a foot in both camps. Hell.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:14 pm**

Dohnut wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:09 pm Corbyn was always a massive fence-sitter on key issues.

Yeah, he was well known for not wanting to rock any boats.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:15 pm**

Yeah, abstaining should only happen when you have a vested interest in a particular outcome, or you haven't a clue what you're voting on. Neither of these apply in this scenario, which means Starmer is using the option to abstain for pure political positioning. And this is the second time he has done that now, so it's starting to become a habit.

I'm not impressed.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:17 pm**

Apart from Brexit, I'm not really sure one of the many criticisms that can be levelled at Corbyn was an unwillingness to take a position on issues. That was kind of part of his problem.

Think the Labour position on this makes sense. They don't think there's enough support for those areas that are under more severe restrictions and the Tory party is splitting massively on it, so let them implode. No-one will care what Labours position was in 4 years time, but the damage it's doing to Johnson's leadership is permanent.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:18 pm**

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:14 pm
Dohnut wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:09 pm Corbyn was always a massive fence-sitter on key issues.
Yeah, he was well known for not wanting to rock any boats.

To be fair, him pledging to remain neutral during a second EU referendum campaign was a good attempt at scrambling up a fence upon which he could then sit.

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:50 pm**

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:58 pm**

Boris Johnson’s Brexit SELL OUT! Barnier gloats to EU – UK wants 60% of fish in own waters

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... son-latest

I do wonder if Boris & the Tories annouced the vaccine news
To obscure his brexit climb down?

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:25 am**

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:18 pm
Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:14 pm
Dohnut wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:09 pm Corbyn was always a massive fence-sitter on key issues.
Yeah, he was well known for not wanting to rock any boats.
To be fair, him pledging to remain neutral during a second EU referendum campaign was a good attempt at scrambling up a fence upon which he could then sit.

But that was it though really, wasn't it? And it was the right move, even now.

Saying he was a fence-sitter is just wrong. He was and is many things but in comparison to Starmer?!

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:28 am**

What position was it that everyone wanted Labour to have on tiers?

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:04 am**

Real Al wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:28 am What position was it that everyone wanted Labour to have on tiers?

Labour are her majestys opposition .

They are there to challenge the decisions of
Her Maj's Govt aren't they ?

Isnt that how politics works ?

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:28 am**

slacker wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:33 am longer term, negative consequences for us plebs.

Says the millionaire

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:29 pm**

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:04 am
Real Al wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:28 am What position was it that everyone wanted Labour to have on tiers?
Labour are her majestys opposition .

They are there to challenge the decisions of
Her Maj's Govt aren't they ?

Isnt that how politics works ?

For some who claims to know how politics work you seem to struggle on how negotiations work.

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