Independent Leyton Orient Forum

[quote="Currywurst and Chips" post_id=187888 time=1614943559 user_id=1056]
[quote="Max B Gold" post_id=187882 time=1614942908 user_id=87]
[quote="Currywurst and Chips" post_id=187880 time=1614942275 user_id=1056]


So you're saying Corbyn was so weak he let a shadow cabinet minister dictate their policy on the biggest issue

Interesting

A socialist alternative you say? Shame there's not like 15 already that aren't crazy or rapey in any way
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It's not about individuals. It's about the balance of political forces within the party at the time. JC had to accommodate the centerists within the PLP for the sake of some bastardised version of unity to present a proposition to the electorate.

Was JC a good leader - No and I said that right from the start but he was part of a movement to counter the neo liberal infiltrators in the Labour Party. That battle is not over by a long chalk.

I will ignore the childish remarks in your final para. Let me know when you want to discuss this in a grown up way.
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How can founding another Socialist alternative to Labour help anything?

It's been done countless times before and is never successful and just ends in factionalism and sometimes, criminality

What makes THIS time different? The left vote is already miniscule, why divide it further?
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See Admin guys post above. He captures some of the trajectory of Labour's demise. I'm going into a fairly lengthy client meeting in a few minutes but will reply more fully idc.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:01 pm

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:25 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:15 am It's not about individuals. It's about the balance of political forces within the party at the time. JC had to accommodate the centerists within the PLP for the sake of some bastardised version of unity to present a proposition to the electorate.

Was JC a good leader - No and I said that right from the start but he was part of a movement to counter the neo liberal infiltrators in the Labour Party. That battle is not over by a long chalk.

I will ignore the childish remarks in your final para. Let me know when you want to discuss this in a grown up way.

How can founding another Socialist alternative to Labour help anything?

It's been done countless times before and is never successful and just ends in factionalism and sometimes, criminality

What makes THIS time different? The left vote is already miniscule, why divide it further?

See Admin guys post above. He captures some of the trajectory of Labour's demise. I'm going into a fairly lengthy client meeting in a few minutes but will reply more fully idc.

Look forward to it Comrade

Yeah, right now I just can't see Labour ever forming a government irrespective of who their leader is. They could possibly look into building a one-off coalition to implement electoral reform and further devolution, although I've no idea if the numbers stack up for that.

Admin wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:22 am

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:16 am

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:16 pm

As Owen Jones says, a worse position for Labour than when Corbyn lost the election......so how come the right-wingetrs in the party aren't calling for Starmers head?
Starmer is the worst leader of the Labour party since WW2.....by far
If he actually tried to oppose the government, once in a while, his position might improve a tad

Slightly hyperbolic - not sure if you can really claim this after he's only been in the job for a year. Putting aside the cries of what about Corbyn, are you really putting Starmer behind Foot and Milliband?

Likewise, I do think we're possibly seeing the end of Labour as a real form of opposition to the Tories. It's increasingly impossible to accommodate the so called broad church with either the left of the right seeking to undermine or unseat whoever's leading the party. The left will be doing it's utmost now to cut Starmer off at the knees in retaliation for the way Corbyn was hampered for most of his leadership. And on it'll go ad infinitum until there's an eventual split into socialist labour and some newly formed centre ground party modelled on the Blair / Brown Noo Labour version. The decline for Labour though dates back beyond Corbyn and Milliband and I suspect Corbyn's result in 2017 might end up being a last hurrah.

And the Tories will go on being Tories and probably keep winning elections. They've managed to nick some of the so called centre ground before Starmer's even worked out where it is. The Labour thinking on tax looks confused and muddled and policy-wise, I'm not seeing much new thinking. Appreciate that being in opposition during the pandemic isn't an easy gig, but there's a lot to aim at with this government (120,000 deaths for a start) and Labour, not just Starmer aren't landing any telling punches.

If only their was a way of judging which version of Labour was more successful

The centrist approach has won elections and has brought real change to the lives of people who rely on a Labour government. The socialist experiment never works and empowers the Tories.

The better Labour do in England, the better they'll do in Scotland as they'll look like a potential government in waiting. Without Scotland, they can't form a majority. But without closing off the possibility of a Labour SNP coalition, they'll never be popular enough to get ahead in England.

Starmers response to Corbyns lot offering every single policy a centre left think tank had thought of in a single manifesto is to say zero. I didn't vote for him during the leadership campaign cause I worried he had no vision, but he's wound up even less convincing than my worst expectations.

It's very bleak. Tories are absolutely trashing the country, enriching themselves in the process, and they are gonna be rewarded with never ending majorities.

Just worth remembering that the 2019 defeat was of such a catastrophic scale, that it was never realistic for Labour to recover sufficiently to have a chance of a commons majority at the next GE. 2029 perhaps, but never 2024.

Also, while a Labour/SNP coalition is toxic to English voters, it can be phrased as devolution-max, with powers extended to other regions too (i.e. metro mayors, Yorkshire etc) as a basis on which to save the Union. Telling the red wall that they too can now Take Back Control may just cut through with some.

Think you'd probably get a repeat of what happened in the north east assembly referendum tbh. People are angry at the political class, the prospect of creating a new layer of it doesn't seem realistic to me, even if I agree that it would be a massive step in the right direction.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:46 pm The better Labour do in England, the better they'll do in Scotland as they'll look like a potential government in waiting. Without Scotland, they can't form a majority. But without closing off the possibility of a Labour SNP coalition, they'll never be popular enough to get ahead in England.

Starmers response to Corbyns lot offering every single policy a centre left think tank had thought of in a single manifesto is to say zero. I didn't vote for him during the leadership campaign cause I worried he had no vision, but he's wound up even less convincing than my worst expectations.

It's very bleak. Tories are absolutely trashing the country, enriching themselves in the process, and they are gonna be rewarded with never ending majorities.

Blair won 2 majorities without Scotland

Dunners wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:09 pm Just worth remembering that the 2019 defeat was of such a catastrophic scale, that it was never realistic for Labour to recover sufficiently to have a chance of a commons majority at the next GE. 2029 perhaps, but never 2024.

Yes, of course, we all know it was the worst result in recorded history or whatever and there’s no chance of Labour getting back in next time.

But how much of that record deficit has Sirkier made up so far?

Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:18 pm

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:46 pm The better Labour do in England, the better they'll do in Scotland as they'll look like a potential government in waiting. Without Scotland, they can't form a majority. But without closing off the possibility of a Labour SNP coalition, they'll never be popular enough to get ahead in England.

Starmers response to Corbyns lot offering every single policy a centre left think tank had thought of in a single manifesto is to say zero. I didn't vote for him during the leadership campaign cause I worried he had no vision, but he's wound up even less convincing than my worst expectations.

It's very bleak. Tories are absolutely trashing the country, enriching themselves in the process, and they are gonna be rewarded with never ending majorities.

Blair won 2 majorities without Scotland

And, get this, in 1997 Labour came back from a shoeing at the 1992 election of similar proportions to the 2019 defeat.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:15 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:09 pm Just worth remembering that the 2019 defeat was of such a catastrophic scale, that it was never realistic for Labour to recover sufficiently to have a chance of a commons majority at the next GE. 2029 perhaps, but never 2024.

Yes, of course, we all know it was the worst result in recorded history or whatever and there’s no chance of Labour getting back in next time.

But how much of that record deficit has Sirkier made up so far?

Made up

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:15 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:09 pm Just worth remembering that the 2019 defeat was of such a catastrophic scale, that it was never realistic for Labour to recover sufficiently to have a chance of a commons majority at the next GE. 2029 perhaps, but never 2024.

Yes, of course, we all know it was the worst result in recorded history or whatever and there’s no chance of Labour getting back in next time.

But how much of that record deficit has Sirkier made up so far?

Dunno. I guess we'll have to wait for the outcome of the next GE instead of losing our sh*t over an opinion poll.

Dunners wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:50 pm

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:15 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:09 pm Just worth remembering that the 2019 defeat was of such a catastrophic scale, that it was never realistic for Labour to recover sufficiently to have a chance of a commons majority at the next GE. 2029 perhaps, but never 2024.

Yes, of course, we all know it was the worst result in recorded history or whatever and there’s no chance of Labour getting back in next time.

But how much of that record deficit has Sirkier made up so far?

Dunno. I guess we'll have to wait for the outcome of the next GE instead of losing our sh*t over an opinion poll.

11 months of sh*t opinion polls. Keef the Forensic can't lay a glove on the Tories even in a corrupt Covid crisis. Ross got about the same time in charge at Orient and then look what happened.

If I was Keir Starmer I would be identifying with many of the Tory policies so that voting labour would give a change of people, not screw the country (and plenty of time to tweak especially re young people). Rishi has already put up corp tax and nationalized the railways, 2 Corbyn policies

The SNP may just go into meltdown, I see independence is less popular according to polls, this could boost labour

John Major won an election he should have lost, but lost to Blair when really he was doing a good job but people wanted a change

I think the old wet lettuce is just biding his time. I get the feeling and it’s no more than that, davros is keeping quiet as any attacks on the tories will be viewed dimly by the majority of people. If he pops at the death rate he’s making honey out of other peoples misery, if he goes at the track and trace he is having a go at a system that’s trying to make a difference and he’s not helping by being critical. I actually think that whatever he says or does right now would be wrong, would be viewed with disdain by the many and he’s scared of widening the rift with the so called red wall.

Until this virus goes away I think he will remain quiet, ineffective and scared to alienate others and maybe hope the tories mess things up so he can go on the attack when we move forwards. I can’t see any other reason why he has been so weak and ineffective.

Thor wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:09 pm I think the old wet lettuce is just biding his time. I get the feeling and it’s no more than that, davros is keeping quiet as any attacks on the tories will be viewed dimly by the majority of people. If he pops at the death rate he’s making honey out of other peoples misery, if he goes at the track and trace he is having a go at a system that’s trying to make a difference and he’s not helping by being critical. I actually think that whatever he says or does right now would be wrong, would be viewed with disdain by the many and he’s scared of widening the rift with the so called red wall.

Until this virus goes away I think he will remain quiet, ineffective and scared to alienate others and maybe hope the tories mess things up so he can go on the attack when we move forwards. I can’t see any other reason why he has been so weak and ineffective.

He could just not be very good at this party leadership lark

Starmer and those who put money on his leadership bid may yet come to regret that they based it all on "must destroy Corbyn and all he stood for"! His determination to block Corbyn as a Labour MP in parliament even though he was elected as Labour MP for his constituency suggests that Starmer has got himself into something that is not really democratic or honourable. Starmer was so determined to rubbish Corbyn but what is now becoming more apparent is that Corbyn/McDonnell principles on public spending are the way forward. So much so that Rishi is adopting this principle.

The BIG difference is: Corbyn/McDonnell wanted to increase public spending on infrastructure and thereby the means to generate employment whereas Rishi is piling up the debt which will result in increased taxation with nothing to show for it.

https://captainofsuccess.com/2021/03/05 ... tax-break/

Surprise, surprise!

If it's like this now what's it gonna be like when everyone else is vaccinated and things reopen?

38% is a massive improvement on last weeks 32%. The fightback starts here!

Also, Starmer's individual ratings have now gone below zero.

I keep forgetting he’s still there.

Hartlepool MP Mike Hill quits amid sexual harassment allegations thus forcing a by election.

I severed all contact with the Labour Party on day 1 of Starmers leadership. what a liability the man is. Spent 90% of his time trying to eradicate all remnants of corbyn, and become a blue labourite.
The electorate would always vote for real tories as opposed to fake tories.
A move to the left, equality, fairness is what people are crying out for, not a man who doesn't often actually oppose the government.
I'll def not vote Labour again whilst he's leader thats for sure